News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


RSLivingston_III

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2007, 04:13:20 PM »
I would call it the ugly Americanization of golf. In the teens and twenties, "we" drove the legalization of steel shafts, the numbering and creation of matched sets, and the gluttony of long driving (as Vardon refered to it).
More recently it is the invasion of golf carts, golf wear in club houses, and not doffing caps. We are converting the youth of the UK to this souless hit it high and long then lob it game.
I think it is sad.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

TEPaul

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2007, 04:16:28 PM »
Ralph:

Why do you suppose it is that America or Americans can have that kind of influence on other peoples from other places?

RSLivingston_III

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2007, 04:19:49 PM »
Might makes right?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2007, 04:23:20 PM »
Maybe, one of these days I will tell you what I really think! ;D ;D ;D
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

TEPaul

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2007, 04:31:30 PM »
Where is the "might" in hitting it high, golf wear in clubhouses and not doffing the cap, Ralph?  ;)

Americans and their ethos is all about can-doism which tends to trample on traditons and conventions. The only convention this country really holds dear is "CHANGE"----eg anything's possible. I really love my country but I sure am ambivalent about some of what it represents. But the thing I love the most about America is that over here and more than any other place in the history of the world you have the ability and opportunity to make a total asshole out of yourself in public. If you think about it, that really is a pretty glorious freedom, isn't it?  ;)

RSLivingston_III

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2007, 04:40:51 PM »
I do my best Jaka impersonation and no firestorm of responses?? :o
Tom, yours was good but just hoping for a bit more...
Thought everyone was bored here. ;)
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

TEPaul

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2007, 04:58:08 PM »
A bit more of what, Ralph?  ;)

By the way, perhaps the greatest mystery of GOLFLCLUBALTLAS.com is whether John Kavanaugh is serious or whether he just constantly puts everyone on or something in between.

In my book, it's possible to quite probable even he doesn't really know.  ;)

I can tell you one thing with total certainty, though---and that is there's a whole lot of zen in paving roads!

I mean, thnk about it---paving a road, a ROAD or the proverbial ROAD---perhaps the path and THE way to the truth and the light and the, ah, ahhh---ummm, whatever.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 05:03:20 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2007, 06:57:44 PM »
In the discussion about many of the architects of that era being true "amateurs," one point has been omitted ... golf in that era was really not a business at all.  Most of the great courses of the era were built for the love of the game by founders or members who were not looking to turn a profit.

There were exceptions in the 1920's and 1930's ... Pebble Beach and Pasatiempo were real estate plays, Banff and Gleneagles were big-company resorts.  But none of Macdonald's projects, or Thomas's, made big profits for their owners.  If they had, perhaps the amateurs would have had a different view of their avocation.

TEPaul

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2007, 08:52:39 AM »
"In the discussion about many of the architects of that era being true "amateurs," one point has been omitted ... golf in that era was really not a business at all.  Most of the great courses of the era were built for the love of the game by founders or members who were not looking to turn a profit."

TomD:

That's an important point about the so-called early "amateurs" and an important point that may help explain the remarkable quality of some of their courses because of the modus operandi they generally used to create them or to complete them.

Perhaps the best example showing a lack of interest in a profit is the April 1, 1913 letter to recruit members from PVGC president Howard Perrin in which he explained that potential members should not expect to make money or even realize a return on their investment---that the only reason for the course and club was the love of the game amongst a group of like-minded golfers.

I think it's important on here to delve deeper into the modus used by some of those early "amateur" architects particularly because it's hard to deny the correlation between some of those men and the remarkable quality and fame of some of their courses. Of course I'm speaking of such as Emmet--GCGC, Leeds---Myopia, Macdonald--NGLA, Hugh Wilson---Merion East, Crump---Pine Valley, Fownes, Oakmont et al.

I think it's important to look at whatever similarities there might have been in their modus with those famous courses compared to other courses of their time or perhaps any time, and to identify what the differences might be between the way they went about it compared to others. If we don't do that there's always a tendency to simply assign to those well known early "amateurs" unusual talent or raw talent, that may not be completely warranted or accurate.

It seems that the common thread or similarity in their method compared to other courses of professional architects or others is the extraordinary time they devoted to their projects and to the completion of their courses, often many years or even decades. There is no professional architect in America of which I'm aware who ever devoted that amount of time to the creation and completion of a course with the notable exception of Donald Ross and Pinehurst #2.

Ultimately, this will probably raise the question of whether any architect, professional or otherwise who does not devote that kind of time is in some way or another the real reason why a golf course might never reach its maximum architectural potential.

Since the theory that time is money is probably true, and is also probably necessary to a successful professional architect, it would appear that in some ways the modus operandi of professional architecture is counterproductive to maximum quality golf course architecture, and that extraordinary time involved in a project is the key to maximum quality, even if done by a so called "amateur".

With most of us on this website who are not in the profession at all and are therefore "amateurs" in this business it is often fairly theoretical the way we look at things. That's why I think it's very important to spent time on construction sites, and the more the better, simply for an education in the nuts and bolts of architectural developement, the way ideas, concepts, strategies and features are arrived at, in some cases in very different ways, and the time involved or lack of it and what it all means in the eventual result.


« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 08:57:51 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2007, 09:17:46 AM »
TE,
not exactly related to your point above, but this Behr article from 1914 mentions 3 of the 'amateurs' you note, and gives an interesting picture of the times.
Peter

"We have said there are good green committees. But we make the admission mainly for the sake of argument. By far the best work in this or any other country has not been done by committees but by dictators. Witness Mr. Herbert Leeds at Myopia, Mr. C. B. Macdonald at the National, and Mr. Hugh Wilson at the Merion Cricket Club. These dictators, however, have not been averse to taking advice. In fact they have taken advice from everywhere, but they themselves have done the sifting. They have studied green keeping and course construction as it was never studied before. And they have given the benefit of their studies to the world at large. Seven years ago, when the National Golf Links was being laid out the ignorance of green committees was beyond all belief."

« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 09:38:45 AM by Peter Pallotta »

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2007, 09:24:57 AM »
A couple of thoughts on Behr.

First, he was far more influential than most people know. Especially with MacK. (Who went on to influence a whole bunch of people.)

Second, and this is tied to the point above, Behr's concern with the ontological aspects of golf are an important part of the case for strategic golf design. That's one of the reasons Behr had such an influence on MacK's thinking. MacK also understood that there was a linkage.

Don't have the time to unpack my second point. In fact, until I do have the time, I'll deny ever having written it.  ;)

Bob

TEPaul

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2007, 09:44:38 AM »
"Second, and this is tied to the point above, Behr's concern with the ontological aspects of golf are an important part of the case for strategic golf design."

Roberto:

Ontological aspects of golf?

I swear I can hear dictionaries opening all over the world.  

Who in the hell do you think you are---the second coming of Max Behr?  ;)

By the end of the day I will have coigned the layman's or blue-collar version of ontological---otherwise many on here may think Behr was implying that golf or golf architecture might be cancer causing.

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2007, 10:15:32 AM »
TEP -

OK, you leave me no choice. I hereby deny having written my last post.

And, no, Behr does not cause cancer.

Bob

Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2007, 10:18:47 AM »
Since I'll never be mistaken for a professional, I think it is safe to assume most of the modern day souls who can appreciate the writtings/teachings of Behr are enthiusiastic amateurs. Save for a few pros, Ben Crenshaw most notably, are predisposed to having a much different take.

Aren't they?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2007, 10:37:02 AM »
Bob:

It's obviously not the end of the day yet---nevertheless it's pretty clear I'm not going to be able to come up with a single blue-collar or layman's WORD to replace ontological. The best I can do for now is to replace it with a blue collar or layman's PHRASE, which will be---"Shit happens and we don't give a flying crap (turd can be substituted here) why".

Is that OK with you? I doubt Max would approve of it but that doesn't matter anyway as he not only overestimated the sensibilities of golfers regarding the necessity of naturalism in architecture, he also completely overestimated their vocabularies---and we're just going to have to do something about that if we ever want people to understand what he was trying to say.

In a sense attempting to rewrite Behr to make most people understand him might be the same basic modus as a little book I bought at JR's in North Carolina on the way down to see you. It's called "How to Speak Southern", and it phonetically explains our Southern language word by word. I always struggled to understand people in the Carolinas and Georgia but now I'll be able to.

Here's an example:

If you want to say (look over the) fence in Southern you actually say (look over the) faints.

Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2007, 11:27:04 AM »
Tom, How about metaphysics?

And to combine your theme....

"after speak'in with Dionne Warwick I went out and metaphysic"

Use the word par in a southern sentence?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re:Golf - From Another Era
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2007, 04:31:27 PM »
"Tom, How about metaphysics?"

Nah, Adam, that's not blue collar enough and it's no good even if it's extremely close to ontological in meaning. Metaphysics is a word a bunch of clowns who've been smoking too much dope would use.