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Craig Disher

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Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« on: August 31, 2002, 02:36:29 PM »
This aerial from 1940 shows all that was built from a 36-hole plan Banks designed south of Annapolis. The course still exists today although the bunkers have been mostly grassed over and the maintenance leaves a lot to be desired. Nevertheless, the greensites and bunkering are wonderful - the shadows give a hint as to the height of the greens and the depth of the bunkers - some are 15-20' below the putting surface! Banks' Redan hole is #4, at the bottom of the picture.

You can see that even as early as 1940, the putting surfaces were cut smaller than Banks probably intended. Standing on top of one of the greens and seeing more "fringe" than close-cut putting surface is a little strange. The course is still fun to play and if you're near Annapolis, check out this museum piece while it's still there.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2002, 03:41:34 PM »
Public or private?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2002, 06:29:57 PM »
Privately owned with memberships available but anyone can show up and play for a very reasonable fee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2002, 09:07:06 AM »
i've wanted to play this course for some time, and your post and aerial give me greater motivation.  thanks for putting up the historical aerial.  does the horseshoe bunker on #6 still exist?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2002, 11:19:33 AM »
Annapois Roads has some of the best Bnaks bunkering - however, today they are all grassed - not enough $$ and/or no one cares.

I have the original 36-holes routed and the entire project documented - this was to be on big-time operation - Olmsted's - Fred Ruth for development and the entire project to be overseen the the biggest name of all (architecture) John Russell Pope.

Too bad the depression killed it.

I've also intervied a few old members - one lived behind the 3rd green.

Interesting story here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2002, 11:27:32 AM »
George,
What about Ray and Roy Shields? Didn't they save the nine holes from extinction, or something like that, around 1945 ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Bahto

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2002, 12:10:44 PM »
Jimmy" yes they did - dod you ever get there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2002, 12:25:56 PM »
George,
No, I never did but plan to in the fall. I'll pick you up on my way by.
Isn't someone doing some work there??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Wes Pumphrey

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2002, 06:56:39 PM »
My first time posting although I've "lurked" (such a lurid sounding word) for close to a year.  I live about a mile from the course and play it once or twice a year. Even though the maintenance is spotty at best the greens are usually in good shape and the layout is sporty.  I shudder to think what those bunkers would be like filled with sand.  The existing grass bunkers are almost all at least 10' below the putting surfaces, which are small to begin with.  

It's easy to walk, easy on your wallet and fun but can be slow at times as it seems to get a lot of novice players.  Not that I'm any good but I play bad golf quickly.
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2002, 07:30:32 PM »
Anyone else out there think better golfers might have more difficulty with grass bunkers, as opposed to lesser golfers fearing sand?

Welcome to the world of posting, Wes - don't be a stranger.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2002, 03:21:00 PM »
Thanks for the aerial of Annapolis Roads GC (Now known as Annapolis Golf Club). Having played several courses either influenced or designed by Charles "Steamshovel" Banks such as Yale GC and Forsgate CC, I could not wait to visit Annapolis Roads. I printed a copy and headed out yesterday to take a look see. 8)  As stated the 9-hole golf course still exists. At least the remains of the original features!  Unfortunately, every one of the bunkers has been grassed over. ??? There is not a single bunker remaining.  

I walked around the course with aerial in hand feeling like I was taking a trip back in time! Banks' love for deep steep faced bunkers is evident throughout the course.  His bunkers and greens were absolutely enormous!  The original greens complexes were spectacular.  Most of Banks' greens were approximately 7,500 square feet. Currently the actual area cut at green height is only about 3,000 squre feet. The remaining area is rough :'( .

In my experience with other Banks courses I found extreme undulations in the greens. Unfortunately the greens features at Annapolis Roads are gone. The most disappointing hole was the par 3 4th hole which was designed as a redan. The majority of the original green is now rough, specifically the back slope which once permitted a low draw to use the slope and track back and left to a treacherous rear pin placement.

I thoroughly enjoyed my walk around Annapolis Roads. It is a shame that what remains is merely a shadow of what once was. If anyone else is interested, I would entertain a return visit with my clubs. Unfortunately we will not be able to truly experience the quality of Banks' design.

Any dedicated GCA'er should make it a point to visit this course when visiting the Baltimore / Washington area.

I wonder if there is a program (maybe similar to the Historical Society for Buildings) that could assist with funding to return this course to its original design?? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

George Bahto

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2002, 05:11:46 PM »
After I visited there I spend a lot of time and effort trying to have them understand what was there .......   I felt I was standing alone yelling in some foreign language.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2002, 05:38:00 AM »
George

I received an email from Kye Goalby regarding Annapolis Roads. He said that he and a group of investors had approached George Graef the owner about acquiring the property and restoring it. Their proposal fell on deaf ears. Maybe Mr. Graef believes that the land can be approved for development. Currently I do not think it has the zoning to be developed.  This would be a wonderful project to pursue!

I have been contacted by other GCA'ers interested in making a visit. I would love to have you join us and share your knowledge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2002, 05:47:39 AM »
george - i wholeheartedly concur with rob waldron's idea.

i played 9 there yesterday morning and, despite the sad shape of the course, was thoroughly impressed by the shaping and size of the green complexes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2002, 07:16:51 AM »
Rob: about two yrs ago Kye was working down in that area and I cued him in to looking at the course because of the bunkering and the green complexes - especially on the first five holes.

I'd love to meet with a group of you down there sometime (soon). I'd near "kill" to restore that course. It would be nice if you guys can put something together.

I have the plans for the entire original 36-hole complex.

My other contact who owned the course for about 20+ years recently died but I had picked his brain a few years ago.

Yes, is is like stepping back in time there.

Now if you want to step back into time that's the way it is  where I've also been working (thanks to friend Jim Kennedy) - Hotchkiss.  Ignored for 75 years or so.  Fun stuff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2002, 08:20:14 PM »
George,
Where did this 9 fit in the 36 hole complex? Pope involved!! A classic revival clubhouse? When I was last there, the owner's wife told me that a clubhouse used to exist near the water but it burned many years ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2002, 06:25:44 AM »
George

What and where is Hotchkiss?
I spoke to several long time players at ARGC and they referred to an old clubhouse and swimming pool on the property. Were they located between the existing facility and the water? I would assume that the land on the water was sold for development.

I have had several GCA'ers expressing interest in visiting ARGC. Let me know when you would like to plan a visit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2002, 07:14:42 AM »
Rob: The (very prestigious) Hotchiss School is in NW CT in a town called Lakeville. The course circles the campus - like a moat. Very hilly terrain in one area, "violent" might be a more appropriate word.

Small, quaint proshop - (lefty) Jim Kennedy the resident professional - watch out he can play!

Unfortunately, untill recently, the course has been at the bottom of their foodchain .....  but things have changed .....phew!

Best way to go is NY Thruway, take rt 84 over to Taconic (still go North) ck you maps and cross over to the east to Lakeville - pleasant ride that way rather than Rt 95
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2002, 07:27:43 AM »
The remains of a swimming pool are behind the current "clubhouse". From the style, it doesn't appear that it was part of the elaborate development that George refers to but rather a feature added after WWII.  Most of the homes around the course date from no earlier than the 50s.

The aerial is cropped from a larger photo. It's clear that in 1940, the area was undeveloped - no pool or large clubhouse is visible.

The current view shows, sadly, the complete absence of sand bunkers. Almost all have been grassed over.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2002, 07:42:16 AM »
Annapolis Roads was to be a 200+ homesite development with 36 holes built by Banks.

The Ruth's of Mt Lake were involved - the Olmstead Bros, the developers, the course, all under the overseeing architect, the great john Russell Pope (Washington DC fame) of NY.

The remaining holes are the remnants of the beginning and end of the only eighteen built - most of the rest sold off for homesites during the depression or shortly thereafter.

The second course was to be tangent to this course.

I have no info on the original clubhouse or even if it had been built.

Let me pose a question:

Why was this area called "Annapolis Roads?" - any ideas? - if anyone knows, don't give it away too early.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2002, 07:56:32 AM »
This is really interesting stuff. It's remarkable how obvious the old bunker shapes are, even in their current grassed in form.

George,
You might be able to answer your question by looking at an area roughly 150 miles dead south that has the same
mysterious word appended to the town name.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2002, 08:05:27 AM »
"roads" is nautical in origin, eh matey.  i sailed with a former girlfriend's father who gave me the scoop.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2002, 09:33:43 AM »
I know what Ann Roads is and came from - just wanted something fn you guys
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Wes_Pumphrey

Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2002, 02:15:49 PM »
I'd love to join you if there's room. Also, since the clubhouse is a bit cramped, I would be happy to host the post round refreshments at my house here in Annapolis.  If you need help picking a good hotel, send me an e-mail.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annapolis Roads GC - Charles Banks
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2002, 12:45:30 PM »
Wes

That sounds like an invite to me. Let's come up with a day and time during the next two or three weeks. Anyone else interested in joining us???

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »