[John Kavanaugh]

I am sure the tree removal has helped but for a course with consistantly ultra fast greens and a respectable amount of play I was wondering what they do that others might not.  Do they have sub-air or any other above ground fans to help cool the greens?  Do they have a special strain of grass as I believe they have been historically fast.  Are they USGA spec or something better?  Have they been able to change any practices like fans or lights in the trees since the trees have been removed?  Sorry if this topic is ot from architecture.

[Ryan Farrow]

That is a mystery others have tried to solve. I believe the Penn State Turf department tried to cultivate the Oakmont Poa a few years ago. It’s just a mix of having the same putting surface for over 100 years and some smart superintendents. Nothing out of the ordinary, besides, lots of mowing.

[John Kavanaugh]

Has Oakmont ever in the history of the club or now needed to use mechanical devices such as above ground lights or above ground fans?

[Steve Burrows]

I'll agree with Ryan.  Being so old, the soils in the greens have, in a sense, become conditioned to their environment.  At the course where I work, most of our greens are the original push-up greens, whereas a handful have been re-done and are USGA greens.  These USGA greens are the ones that give us the most fits, but the settled soils in our aged push-up greens are the most reliable, and the least susceptible to summer afternoon wilt and disease pressure.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

I'll agree with Ryan.  Being so old, the soils in the greens have, in a sense, become conditioned to their environment.  At the course where I work, most of our greens are the original push-up greens, whereas a handful have been re-done and are USGA greens.  These USGA greens are the ones that give us the most fits, but the settled soils in our aged push-up greens are the most reliable, and the least susceptible to summer afternoon wilt and disease pressure.  

Steve- I'd have to say (being a geneticist) that its not the soils that adapted but the grass. Its likely that the stresses of 100 years of having to adapt to the very local soil conditions have resulted in the genetic adaptation (through random mutation) of the grass strain. Only the hardy ones grow and survive best and in the long run they take over the whole culture.  

[Steve Burrows]

GJChilds:

Thanks for the clarification.  I was under the impression that soils also had the capacity for alteration over time, at least with respect to pH.

[tlavin]

I'll agree with Ryan.  Being so old, the soils in the greens have, in a sense, become conditioned to their environment.  At the course where I work, most of our greens are the original push-up greens, whereas a handful have been re-done and are USGA greens.  These USGA greens are the ones that give us the most fits, but the settled soils in our aged push-up greens are the most reliable, and the least susceptible to summer afternoon wilt and disease pressure.  

We've had the same experience with USGA spec greens at the clubs where I play in Chicago.  It's quite maddening to attempt to "improve" a putting green by adapting to the more scientifically proven method of green construction and then see a lot of turfgrass problems.

[Eric Morrison]

Soils change over time as well. Ph, nutrient levels, cation exchange capacities, pore space, etc. can fluctuate all the time. That is why soil testing is done on a regular basis at courses. Every time one aerifies, topdresses, spikes, deep drills, adds soil amendments, fertilizes, etc., the composition and structure of the soil is changed. Not having ever been to Oakmont, I can only guess that they have some older strains of perennial poa that have stood the test of time and can produce quality putting surfaces with sound agronomic practices.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

A USGA green section person tells a story about being at Oakmont several years ago, while there he asked for some cores which he brought back to his home course.  He placed them in a few putting surfaces and the story is that they have competed very well against local poa strains, spreading throughout the course.  

True or not wouldn't 100 years of aggressive maintenance produce a better grass through natural selection and evolution?

[Geoffrey Childs]

GJChilds:

Thanks for the clarification.  I was under the impression that soils also had the capacity for alteration over time, at least with respect to pH.

Steve

The soils can be altered by the superintendent or by any changes in the local water supply but they have no way of knowing what if any plants are there.  The plant on the other hand has a built in program to use the nutrients and a feedback system to judge whether the environment is favorable. You grow or you don't grow.  You grow fast or you grow slow.  Every organism is constantly accumulating mutations some of which are beneficial and others harmful. In the long run "mutant" plants that adapt to the local conditions and grow and reproduce faster will overtake the population.

End of genetics and evolution 101

[archie_struthers]

 


Great question for us wanna be superintendents

After playing there two years ago on a hot, humid , busy day. In the afternoon, in mid summer I was amazed at the health and look of the putting surfaces.

We have talked about it incessantly, at least I have to anyone who would listen (lol) , and came away with some interesting sidebars.

Don Siok, the longtime golf professional at Atlantic City Country Club, echoes similar sentiments relative to the old greens at AC which were legendary for otheir quality.

He said that before the irrigation system went in they  were absolutely unbelievable,
hard , firm ,fast and true.

They did not improve post water, in fact seemed to be less lustrous, if still good.

Interesting.

Looks like natural selection in the grass population  to me!

[Adam Sherer]

The soil at Oakmont is a heavy clay and presumeably that is what the greens were built out of 100 years ago. It's the type of soil that if compacted and left to dry in the sun will become as hard as concrete.
[edit] (to give you an idea of the soil on which the greens were built)

Over decades of topdressing I'm sure the green profiles have improved to a more sand-based composition. However, that does not diminish the incredible condition that Oakmont obtains on a less than desireable soil.

"How they keep it alive?"
Who knows?

How do they keep them to US Open perfection every day of the year?

They have put special drainage in the greens (some years ago and some during the recent renovation)  Aside from that, I don't believe there are any special conditions or technology used.

[Kyle Harris]

GJChilds:

Thanks for the clarification.  I was under the impression that soils also had the capacity for alteration over time, at least with respect to pH.

Steve

The soils can be altered by the superintendent or by any changes in the local water supply but they have no way of knowing what if any plants are there.  The plant on the other hand has a built in program to use the nutrients and a feedback system to judge whether the environment is favorable. You grow or you don't grow.  You grow fast or you grow slow.  Every organism is constantly accumulating mutations some of which are beneficial and others harmful. In the long run "mutant" plants that adapt to the local conditions and grow and reproduce faster will overtake the population.

End of genetics and evolution 101

I had a thread on this disappear to page 3 or 4 thanks to the blind leading the blind Masters stuff.

[Bill Brightly]

I hear they have also installed drainage on the greens in the past few years, using TDI out of Canada.

[John Kirk]

This USGA paper may help you understand the issue better:

http://usgatero.msu.edu/v03/n09.pdf

Like Geoffrey says, older poa annua stands adapt to a low mowing environment by mutating into a dense perennial stand of bluegrass cultivars.

[Gordon Oneil]

I think I have been fortunate enough to play 40 or so rounds of golf at Oakmont over the years; the majority of those in the late '90s and early "00s (?) and only two or three times since the tree removal was started/completed.
If memory serves, and without any sort of agronomy background at all or even a green thumb, I can recall only two greens ever having unique problems/issues that stood out from the set.  Yes, although it may be heresy, there have been brief periods in time when I have played there, or heard from a few of my member friends, when the overall condition of the putting surfaces were in less than their usual, stellar best.  
I seem to remember a fan behind the first green at some point.  I'm not sure any tree removal program would give that green complex adequate coverage or air circulation based upon where it sits on the corner of that side of the property.
The other green that I can remember having issues is the 8th.  There used to be a line of pine trees, scotch pines I believe if those are the type that have the foliage beginning at ground level (remember I'm from South Florida).  Several greens had this sort of wall of trees behind it, 16th for one.  But while the pines behind the 16th were at least 15 or 20 yards down at the bottom of a significant slope, there wasn't much more than a few yards between the back collar and the pines on eight.  I haven't the foggiest (did I just work the word "foggiest" into a post [?]) what the compass position of the green with relation to the trees and the angle of the sun but I do remember rather frequent and recurring problems with the condition of that green, especially on the back third of a fairly large green.  I do not recall any other trees close enough to have an effect but if there were there ain't no way they are anything more but mulch now.
Again, this is off the top of my head and please forgive the layman's terms.  
For those of you who have more significant and/or recent experience at Oakmont, or are lucky enough to play there on a regular basis, does any of this ring a bell (and is that fan still behind the first green or any other green)?
Finally, though I'm born and raised on Bermuda, I have played a fair amount of golf on bent grass greens, especially in the Northeast.  But I have never seen any putting surfaces anywhere else in the world that look quite like the greens at Oakmont, forget about the fact that they are slicker than snot on a doorknob.  They just look unique to the untrained eye.  Can anyone else comment or explain this to a guy who has played a lot of golf but admittedly can't keep a silk house plant alive?

[Ryan Farrow]

Gordon, there is no fan on number 1 green and a lot of trees were removed especially towards the south (right) side of the green because of some work on the overpass. I would say the green now gets a fair amount of sunlight but certainly less than some of the others. I do remember hearing about #8 green having issues but that was mainly due to poor drainage, which is no long a problem because of the new drainage system.

[Gordon Oneil]

Were you around pre-tree removal?
Ever have an impeded backswing just a few steps off the back edge?
... though it is a pretty tough green to miss long.

[RJ_Daley]

I'd be interested in what they are doing right now.  This crazy spring weather pattern predicts fairly low temps and significantly high rains for the next 10+ days around P'burg.  So, with heavy clay soils, and poa dominant turf (if that is what they have) it could get interesting for the super if the cool, wet stuff persists into May.  

[Jon Wiggett]

I'll agree with Ryan.  Being so old, the soils in the greens have, in a sense, become conditioned to their environment.  At the course where I work, most of our greens are the original push-up greens, whereas a handful have been re-done and are USGA greens.  These USGA greens are the ones that give us the most fits, but the settled soils in our aged push-up greens are the most reliable, and the least susceptible to summer afternoon wilt and disease pressure.  

Steve,

as I am sure you are well aware the USGA specs. are just that specs. They are not put forward even by the USGA as the best way to build greens these days. They are there however as the best way to avoid legal problems.

In the right climate they are fine and the USGA are also looking into various additives for its rootzones to increase the organic content (peat is now less desirable on eco grounds).

Greens with a high humus content will always give a better putting surface if they are free draining as they will have more active micro biological lifeforms helping to make more nutrients available to the plants at a time when they need it in the amounts that they need it and also helping to fight diseases.

The danger with such greens is that if built with the wrong materials they can go seriously wrong. The main factors deciding the state of the putting surface however still remains the maintenance program and the amount of play.

[wsmorrison]

The cool summer nights, well relative to Philadelphia in any case, makes a bit easier to maintain championship conditions on a daily basis.  In the daytime and nighttime hothouse that is often Philadelphia in summer, superintendents Matt Shaffer, Scott Anderson, Mike McNulty, John Gosselin, Scott May, Charlie Carr among others do a marvelous job in maintaining championship conditions in a difficult region.  Matt Shaffer, Jamie Kapes and the crew at Merion maintain championship conditions on a daily basis (weather permitting) much like Oakmont.  These bookend courses in Pennsylvania are treasures of the Commonwealth.

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