[Paul P]

Most courses in Ireland now have golf buggies. However, there might only be five of them for the course, cause not that many use them. It's extra money, which courses like Enniscrone, Murvagh etc can do with, since a green fee is only €45.

I don't imagine that there ever will be a course where you have to ride a buggy in Ireland, except maybe Old Head, but that's really an American course set in Irealnd.

[Mike_Duffy]

Walking a golf course in Asia is just about unheard of.  At almost every course one has the compulsory hire of a cart thrust upon them, as well as employing the services of a caddy and at some courses, two caddies, nearly always beautiful women.

I usually end up walking the courses with torrents of perspiration cascading off me, while the caddy(s) speed along the fairways in the cart.

I don't know how many times I've been told "But Mr Mike, only poor people walk in Asia".

In such instances, the lyrics of Noel Coward's song of the 1930s usually come to mind:

"Mad dogs and Englishmen (and golfers) go out in the midday sun,
The smallest Burmese rabbit would deplore such a foolish habit,
While in Hong Kong they strike a gong and no further work is done,
Mad dogs and Englishmen (and golfers) go out in the midday sun.

The caddy hire I don't mind as it provides employment to impoverished local people. However, the carts in tandem with the caddies, are a rip-off.

[ian]

Pine Valley has a neat trick, no yardages on the course, makes you need the caddy. Got a caddy, might as well walk.

[Steve Lang]

Walking is not encouraged as cart revenues at a course can be sufficient to significanty cover salaries for the pros and perhaps others...

40,000 rounds a year x 8-14$/round = $320,000 - 560,000 range of possible revenue... of course you're depreciating the cart costs, paying for fuel and doing maintenance... add to the balance sheet the greens fee, concessions, equip sales revenue, and debit the myriad other operational costs... down to the trash hauling and you see its a major cash flow to be considered and maximized.

My wife and I have walked on all our courses in 3 hours or less as a twosome, hit and walk, hit and walk... it sure helps to keep it in play... vs. on weekends we view a 4 hour walking round as a success in the cart dominated traffic...  when cart management is often lacking... i.e., folks having to walk back into the following groups line of play.

An interesting facet we notice is that the cart riders end up walking just as much when its "cart path only."  And get frustrated when they have to carry 5 clubs cause maybe they'll traverse to the green of foot.  They also get tired...

I'll walk the front nine at Highpointe anytime, but get me a cart for the back (once was enough)!

1.  Is walking encouraged... No.
2.  Is walking given supreme lip service ... Yes, especially in ratings.
3.  Is walking necessary... by modern residential routings ... more than not.... by resort courses... typically,...by classical routings... no.
4.  Does it make any difference on a crowded weekend... No.
5.  Is having a caddy a good thing.... Yes, Its a great thing.
6.  Will it change...No because of $

[HW]

My club encourages walking.
My club also enforces cart or caddies until 3pm.  If there are no caddies, you must take a cart
Pull carts are not aloud (and I agree).  But I still like carrying the bag.

I don't understand why a trail fee can't be established that is equal to the PROFIT made on a golf cart on a per round basis.  This would be very easy to determine and everyone wins!

Does anyone know the price vs cost to operate a golf cart on a per round basis?  This is obviously a range since there are many varibles.  However, there aren't too many factors.  

[Steve Hyden]

A bit off the point, but I have to relay this story.  A few years ago, TPC Sawgrass gained walking points in the Golf Digest ratings, but when I called to schedule a round, I was told that a cart was mandatory.  I ratted them out to Golf Digest, but they never took any action (Ron, I'm still waiting for you to return my call) and the course still gets bonus walking points, a significant matter since the points totals are so close.  

But really, who would want to walk some of these new courses?  World Woods supposedly allows walking and I swear there are several walks between holes that can be measured in miles (or at least fractions).  Never mind club policy, some if not most modern courses have been built to discourage walking.  

[Evan Fleisher]

Steve,

Regarding your point about World Woods...excellent exmaple!

I was one of the poor saps who decided to walk it the day we played (Pine Barrens course).  Your green to tee distance comment was right on the mark...not very walker friendly...and the other thing that bugged me was the ball washers.

Ball washers, you say?  Yes!  There were NO BALL WASHERS on the course...except for those attached to the cart!  Now how is that for a "walker friendly" layout? :O

Not...

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, as this thread is now on Page 3 and I haven't read it all, but....

If you want to play a course that not only accepts, but also ENCOURAGES walking...

Get thee to Twisted Dune in southern NJ, which not only encourages walking through a very tight, intimate routing, but which also offers a DISCOUNT to do so!!!

The fact that the course has been recently rated as the #1 public course in NJ by Jersey Golfer magazine is accurately indicative of the quality of the design.  

[A.G._Crockett]

I want to echo HW's earlier request for info regarding the average profit margin for a cart in a given 18 hole round.  I'd love to use such a figure in my ongoing debate with my club's GM about establishing a trail fee and allowing me to walk in the a.m. (carts required before noon).
Anyone know figures?

[JakaB]

Evan,

What the hell is that comment about ball washers all about...how does a plastic rod that thrusts your ball into a water and brush system improve your round over wetting your ball naturally and using a towel.  In what world would any sane person say "look hun, they've got ball washers...lets walk today"   When do you think ball washers were invented by and whom...not a caddie master...some Flynt baller in their golden ass hauler...I've never seen a tree uglier than a ball washer but I've never seen anyone piss in a tree either.

[HW]

I've seen people piss in a tree.

[SL_Solow]

At the course I grew up playing an active caddy program was supported by the requirement that so long as caddies were available, if members wanted to use a cart, they had to take a caddy (1 per cart) as well.  Aside from keeping the caddies busy and employed this policy speeded play(fewer searches for lost balls) and improved maintenance ( assistance in ball mark repairs, divot replacement, bunker raking etc.)  It also encouraged walking.  This policy is harder to sell today.  By the way, JakaB said "in" not "on" and I suspect he chose his words carefully.

[Dan Grossman]

Mike,

I am actually surprised to hear you say that about Twisted Dune.  I played there on Sep 4th (a day after the Jersey shore got 2 inches of rain).  The course was completely waterlogged and actually difficult to drive a cart on because it was so muddy and wet.  When we checked in, we were not asked whether we were walking or riding and there didn't seem to be a price difference.  (Although I didn't look because I assumed I had to ride).  They just automatically put our clubs on a cart and away we went.  I would have PREFERRED to walk since you couldn't drive the carts on the fairway, but I didn't even ask because it seemed like a lost cause.

I think it is different for a club to ENCOURAGE walking vs. ALLOWING walking.  In my opinion, Twisted Dune may allow walking, but it certainly doesn't encourage (or even promote) it.

[MBL]

Interesting twist to this discussion topic (thanks JakaB):

How many out there have pissed in a ball washer?

[MBL]

An observation from the midwest - few public courses allow walking; most are lower end few wise.  One exception on the higher end is Gateway National that charges the same walk or ride.  

SteveP -
Completely agree regarding assessment of carts on path vs. walking...hell, I believe that walkers make better time than ANYONE in a cart  (see earlier posting about driving around looking for both players' balls).

But fyi, Gateway Nat'l. charges less - at least on the weekend - for walking vs. riding.  My peeve with those guys is the lack of bridge on number 8 between tee and fairway and the lack of water on the course (they've got silly little coolers on the carts) between the 7th tee and 13th tee, then no water from 13 in.  

Oh well, a small cross (or carry bag to bear.

[Steve Lang]

I don't understand why a trail fee can't be established that is equal to the PROFIT made on a golf cart on a per round basis.  This would be very easy to determine and everyone wins!

Does anyone know the price vs cost to operate a golf cart on a per round basis?  This is obviously a range since there are many varibles.  However, there aren't too many factors.  

[/quote]

Carts sell for about $4000-5000 or so new, individually, clubs get nice discount (25-40%) on volume deals... and write them off in 3-4 years... say 3.5 yrs...at 8% interest, $3750 cost... annualizes to 1270 per year...and you'll recover $ when resold to lowerclass club in future... maybe 500 $ per year for a little oil & grease, nut and bolt maintenance, maybe not...

Gas Carts typically have about a 6-7 gallon tank, and get around 150 miles per tank... about 25 miles per gallon from less than 10 HP motors with govenors... round of golf about 5 miles by foot, probably a little more by cart, especially when its hot and you're driving around to keep cool or looking for balls left and right...  say $1.50 per gallon for gas... $0.06 per mile, $0.30 per round base cost,, and a 10 minute cleanup by min-wage type maybe a dollar or so! ... put two golfers in there for $10.00 each... looks like a pretty good return if you milk the carts till they die.

Electric carts usually get 2 rounds between chargings, so once you've paid for chargers, its just 6-8 hours of electricity ... for those amp-hours, in NE you're paying what?... 10 cents? lower in Ohio, 5 cents...  in any case it doesn't add up to much continuing costs...

[angie]

here's one for arnold palmer and callaway i suppose: should "recreational golfers" play to a different set of rules and/or equipment standards than the pros? well, i guess with carts that's already a reality!
carts are great when the heat index is 100, and they are also great when the "windchill factor" makes it feel like 33 degrees because you can bring along your polartec lap robe and wrap up in it cozily in the cart with the windscreen up etc. we see our share of both extremes in the midwest.
otherwise, it's economics. back in the olde days, when i was a kid/teenager at evanston g.c., john revolta told me (this was way back in another galaxy far far away - in the days when club pros owned the cart "franchise" at the club) that 35% of his summertime income at evanston came from cart revenues. and that was at a private club where carts weren't really all that common. so how about them apples?
i've never pissed on a tree or a ball washer, but did you hear the one about the guy who broke his leg when he fell off one? hee-hee, hope the e-police don't get overly offended by that.
anyhow, MUNI's RULE! at least when it comes to walking. NEVER a problem walking at any muni i know of, or taking a trolley. and you do meet the nicest people at muni's!

[Evan Fleisher]

JakaB,

Ball washers themselves are not a big deal...it was just the fact that they were not available to the walking and riding public, that's all.  It really had no direct bearing on wether or not I would walk (or anyone else for that matter).  Hell, a course does not need to provide me anything to walk, I will do it every time because I feel so strongly about it.

I never said that a ball washer improves my round.  this thread asked the question "Is walking really encouraged", and thought this was a pretty stark example of a course NOT catering to or  encouraging walking.  Period.

[mike_beene]

Since ball washers came up, why put them on tees? Am I the only person who thinks a clean ball putts better?How many people actually use them?Maybe if you chip in.Sorry for the diversion.

[Tim Weiman]

Mike Beene:

While we're on a diversion........your observation about the location of ball washers is interesting.

FYI, I've played with more a few caddies in my day but never one that offered to clean my ball before I played a tee shot.

[Jerry Kluger]

    I think the tone of the is getting a little testy and we ought to get back on track.  To the best of my understanding the ball washer issue was whether a lack of ball washers can discourage walkers as they would require a caddy to clean the balls or a ball washer on the cart; I see nothing wrong with carrying a towel where I wet one end and use it to clean my ball and clubs.
     While I would like a course to post its walking policy or even ask you if you will walking or riding at the time you book your tee time, I see nothing wrong with asking at the time of check in.  
     My pet peeve when I am walking and the grass is freshly cut is how to get that grass out of soft spikes.  The is espescially true with what I think they call black widow soft spikes where it is nearly impossible to get the grass out of them.  Wire bristle brushes on the base of a ball washer help but it can cause some awful slipping during a morning round and the dew on the ground.  

[Tim Weiman]

Jarry K:

I really can't imagine anyone who cares to walk being influenced by the availability of ball washers. The health and playing experience benefits are so overwhelming that such trivial matters aren't even part of the equation.

So, getting back to your question, my experience has been that:

1) Walking is welcomed if not encouraged at munis because the staff seems sensitive to the fact that many people want to play more not pay more.

2) Walking is encouraged at certain private clubs because the staff understands the members really want to walk.

3) Walking is part of the culture in the UK & Ireland, even if there is a creeping American influence slowing eroding this culture.

4) Carts are most prominent - and often required  - at CCFAD's, where customers may play once or twice and never return AND the staff is trying to extract every penny they can.

5) Carts are prominent - and often required - at resort courses. Ditto #4.

6) More young people seem to be into carts than when I was growing up. Back then just having enough money to play and keep a few balls in your bag was part of the challenge.

7) Far too many people taking carts don't seem to know how to move on a golf course. The biggest problem is that both riders take the cart to each player's ball and than wait for each player to play their shot - instead of dropping one player off and meeting up again a few minutes later after both shots have been played.

[Jerry Kluger]

    I really think that the argument concerning speed of play in riding versus walking is irrelevant except in cases where there are long walks between greens and tees.  It is very easy to say that if each player has his own cart and plays as fast as he can with basic restrictions of where you can drive the cart you will probably play faster; but so what.  The fact is that a foursome walking and playing ready golf can play most any course in less than four hours and almost any course in three and a half hours or less.  Those with less than four walking will play even faster so speed of play should really not be a consideration in whether walking is encouraged or allowed.
     I went to the US Open qualifying in my area this year and I followed a threesome of Jonathan Kaye, Paul Gow and Joey Sindelar.  At the second hole, which was their 11th, there was a group hitting and another group waiting when they arrived at the tee.  Kaye was extremely upset at the wait and we had a brief discussion at which time he told me how disgusted he was with how slow play was.  He also is quite a character and not inhibited about saying anything and he made the comment that he could play both courses in an hour and a half by himself with a cart.  I said that was a bit ridiculous but he said that this pace of play was ridiculous; he walked off the course two holes later and withdrew.
     When architects are designing courses today are many of them considering how the course will be for walkers or are all public courses other than munis being designed with carts as the primary consideration so if the routing requires a long walk between greens and tees this is of no consequence?  

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