Michigan - the head-scratching begins...

[Matt_Ward]

P T:

I've opined previously that state listings are more challenging because too often you have the out-of-area persons who only play a course once -- usually it's the newer ones which get plugged -- and as a result the overall nature of such listings really doesn't have the level of due diligence one would think is sufficient.

Given the plethora of Michigan courses the need for sound evalutions is quite daunting but it speaks volumes on the ignorance of those who weighed in given the responses this topic has generated.

[Paul Richards]

Mark

If you read my original post, Indianwood was REALLY short-sold by this list.


If you can gain access, it is a MUST-PLAY.



 

[David Wigler]

where is Indianwood Old in the state? I am supposed to drive up from Detroit to Traverse City to play Kingsley in July, is Indianwood on the way?

What else is there to play (public or resort) that is on the way from Detroit to Traverse City? I understand it is a 3 hour ride, I land at around noon or so......

Thanks in advance....

Mark

Indianwood is just outside Lake Orion, a bit north of Pontiac.  Going from the airport to there and then onto TC is a bit cumbersome.  

Franklin Hills is a bit more doable as it much closer to the airport, located just north of Southfield/Farmington Hills - not far from 696 and Telegraph Rd.  Its easy to take Telegraph up to 75 and get the hell out of Ametyville.  

Oakland Hills is just the other side (East) of Telegraph and not much different than FH for accessing 75 North.  

Plum Hollow is just a bit south of OH and FH, in Southfield, again not far from Telegraph Road.  

Despite the preferences of JakaB, Plum Hollow is not nearly in the class of the other 3 - though it is a fine course just the same and certainly worth a go.

Ciao

The Michigan list is so out of whack because we are subjected to so much Art Hills that our brains turn to mush  .

Actually i cannot fathom any of it.  I cannot name a single person who would rather play Wyndgate than Plum Hollow.  Crystal Downs, Dunes Club, Franklin Hills, Indianwood Old, Oakland Hills South, Kingsley, Pointe O' Woods,  Radrick, Country Club of Detroit, Plum Hollow, Oakland Hills North, and then any of number of great clubs like Barton, Meadowbrook, Pilgrim's Run, Angels Crossing, etc. and you have a list.  I have not played Arcadia either, so i cannot comment.

[Andy Troeger]

For as much as everyone on here likes to complain about how bad the list is for Michigan and other states, other than maybe a couple older clubs, I find it ironic that we've not come to any kind of consensus as to what courses are misplaced!  

[Andy Troeger]

Sean,
Very true. I would certainly say the same thing in terms of not being an expert, especially considering just how many courses there are in Michigan.

I would be interested to see just how different that list looked from the GD (or GW one). We're not dealing with objective items, so knowledgable minds can disagree on what they like.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

You hit the nail on the head.

Consensus lists, invariably will promote a number of courses to be listed simply because of the vast number of different opinions / preferences one gets when you have a range of people participating.

The issue is trying to give more weight to those who actually live in a given state -- while still weighing, to a lesser extent, those who come into a state and play only a few rounds at select courses.

The Michigan list is an interesting case study because while the state has so many public courses -- the reality is that much of what is public is nothing more than functional golf -- far from being listed as noteworthy from a pure architectural standpoint.

I'll say this again -- how Kingsley doesn't even sniff the top 10 according to Digest is the classic example of a listing that has gone terribly wrong.

[David Wigler]

For as much as everyone on here likes to complain about how bad the list is for Michigan and other states, other than maybe a couple older clubs, I find it ironic that we've not come to any kind of consensus as to what courses are misplaced!  

Andy,

We may disagree about what should be on it but we are all in agreement that there are 40 or more courses better than The Bear and Wyndgate and they should not be on it.  For that alone, Huckaby should be flogged for his affiliation with that rag.

The fact that Kingsley is still ranked as poorly as it is simply is an indictment on Huckaby's golf knowledge as much as it was back in the day when i added the quote to the bottom of my posts.

[Chris_Blakely]

David Wigler:

I agree that there are a lot of courses better than The Bear.  But, I can not agree that there are 40 courses (not on the list) better than The Westwynd at the Wyndgate.  This is why I asked in Reply #34 to Paul Richards if he knew which course at the Wyndgate was ranked (Eastwynd or Westwynd).  If the Eastwynd - older course and the one I assume is called The Wyndgate, it does not look great from the adjacent holes with the Westwynd (holes 5-7).

Does that mean that the Westwynd belongs in the top 25 in the state, most likely not, but I find it hard to believe that there are 40 courses NOT on the list that are better than it.

[Paul Richards]

Chris

I visited the Eastwynd course at Wyndgate.


There is some very interesting   stuff going on there, architecturally speaking.

However, there is NO reason why this course should be ranked anywhere on that list, IMHO.

[Andy Troeger]

David,
I've mentioned before that my list would be pretty different from the collective one as well. I've not played The Bear or Wyndgate, so I can't say much there. Kingsley's in my top 10...of courses I've played period...so obviously I agree with you there.

I just find it amusing that as a group we've put about 20 courses into the top 10 in the state. Kind of like GW puts 200 courses in the top 100  

[Andy Troeger]

Sean,
Maybe so, I just think that even on this board that tastes vary so much that you'd have a hard time coming to a consensus. Think of how few people have played Greywalls, especially considering the positive comments and that it might be a top 10 in state course and its barely gotten a mention on this thread (if at all...I'm not sure and don't feel like reading back just to find out). POW would sure make my top ten if not yours.

[Chris_Blakely]

Paul,

I have not played the EASTWYND course.  I have played the WESTWYND course both at the Wyndgate.  The EASTWYND course is private.  The WESTWYND course is semi-private.  This is what I have been trying to find out if anyone knows, which course is in the top 25 in the state: EASTWYND or WESTWYND.  Again, from what I have seen (played WESTWYND) saw 5 holes of the EASTWYND that adjoin several of the WESTWYND, the WESTWYND is a very good course and looked like it stacked up very well to its private sister course.  Does the WESTWYND belong in the top 25 in the state, I would guess not, but I have not played many of the private courses that are on that list.

I can say that I like the WESTWYND course over Red Hawk, Elk Ridge and the Bear all of which are on Golf Digest's list.

[David Wigler]

David Wigler:

I agree that there are a lot of courses better than The Bear.  But, I can not agree that there are 40 courses (not on the list) better than The Westwynd at the Wyndgate.  This is why I asked in Reply #34 to Paul Richards if he knew which course at the Wyndgate was ranked (Eastwynd or Westwynd).  If the Eastwynd - older course and the one I assume is called The Wyndgate, it does not look great from the adjacent holes with the Westwynd (holes 5-7).

Does that mean that the Westwynd belongs in the top 25 in the state, most likely not, but I find it hard to believe that there are 40 courses NOT on the list that are better than it.

Chris,

The course that is ranked would be Eastwyn.  Here are 40ish that are better than both off the top of my head with no research and in no particular order: OH South and North, Plum Hollow, CCD, DGC North, Meadowbrook, Barton Hills, Radrick, UofM, Bloomfield Hills, Franklin Hills, Indianwood Old, Birmingham, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, Orchards, True North, Angels Crossing, TreeTops Smith, Heather, Arcadia Bluffs, Bay Harbor (Links - Quarry), Majestic, Legend, Pointe O' Woods, Pilgrims Run, Lost Dunes, Gailes, Dunes Club, Forest Dunes, Eagle Eye, Hawk Hollow, Walnut Hills, Greywalls. OK I lied, I am too lazy to do research and I only came up with 35 off the top of my head that are unquestionably better than Wyndgate and the Bear (And amazingly only 1 Art Hills).  Here are another 20 that most would say are better but I would accept and argument; Grosse Ile, DGC South, High Pointe, Black Forest, Indianwood New, Belvedere, Black Lake, The Majestic, Tam O' Shanter, Shepards Hollow, Sharf, Treetops Fazio, Wuskewon.  Ok I lied again, that is only 13.  At and rate, there are 35 unquestionably better and another 13 that almost everyone would argue are better - And only 2 AH's on the entire list.  

PS - I apologize for any obvious ones I missed.  I am sure they will be pointed out.

[Chris_Blakely]

David,

I have not played Eastwynd, but I thought you originally posted that it was courses not on the list.  True North, the Gailes, Forest Dunes, etc. are all on the list.  

Please note, I was commenting on WESTWYND not EASTWYND - which I have not played.  I would not agree with a lof of the lower tier publics on your list being better than THE WESTWYND.

This was not an effort to get you to name 40 courses, more to confirm which course at the Wyndgate.  You said Eastwynd and from what I have seen of 5 to 7 holes, I would agree with a lot of the courses you list, but again, I have not played the EASTWYND only WESTWYND.
Thanks,
Chris

[David Wigler]

David,

I have not played Eastwynd, but I thought you originally posted that it was courses not on the list.  True North, the Gailes, Forest Dunes, etc. are all on the list.  

Please note, I was commenting on WESTWYND not EASTWYND - which I have not played.  I would not agree with a lof of the lower tier publics on your list being better than THE WESTWYND.

This was not an effort to get you to name 40 courses, more to confirm which course at the Wyndgate.  You said Eastwynd and from what I have seen of 5 to 7 holes, I would agree with a lot of the courses you list, but again, I have not played the EASTWYND only WESTWYND.
Thanks,
Chris

Chris,

Fair enough but my point was that there are more than 40 courses that are unquestionably better than either.  If you are a member, please reply and I will drop it as I know the folly of convincing a member that their course is not the best (I do not mean that as a criticism - it is the same folly as trying to convince a parent that they have an ugly baby).  

If you are not a member, than please reply with which ones you have played and felt Westwynd was better.  I do not know what lower tier public means.  Lower tier to me means inexpensive.  The only lower tier on that list is Angels Crossing and I think it blows either Wyndgate course away.

[Chris_Blakely]

David,

I am not a member or either course.  On the golf digest list, the public courses that the Westwynd course is better than are the following (IMO):

The Bear
Elk Ridge
Red Hawk

Of the courses that you listed, I would not say that it is a slam dunk better or even better than the following:

The Orchards
The Majestic
Hawk Hollow

There are a couple to me that could go either way  and there are a lot of the private courses that I have not played.

Thanks,
Chris