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Joe Hancock

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Re:Be careful what you wish for....
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2007, 10:54:52 PM »
Joe,

Care to take the time to expand on that thought a bit?

Thanks

Certainly.

I tend to believe, from experience, that firm and fast is a result of agronomic practices that create turfgrass plants that have a strong, tough structure. Of course, it is also soil and moisture dependent, but I think too often that moisture is the most focused upon of these three factors.

My opinion is that the tournament courses we most often see  are courses that are maintained typically green and lush. Then, in an effort to make the course play a certain way, the governing body (USGA, PGA Tour) direct the course superintendent to dry out the facility for a relatively short time preceding the event. While that certainly firms it up from a soil perspective, the plants that are there are not what I consider strong, tough structured plants.

I think the effort to make the game tougher for the pros is too focused on grass height (too deep in roughs, too short on greens) and not enough focused on long term agronomic practices that will provide truly firm surfaces, thus creating the necessary challenge for the highest levels of competition.

So, I guess my ideal prescription for firm and fast would be something like this(in no particular order):

Sandy, well drained soils

Agronomic practices that use water minimally

Mowing heights that produce tough, healthy plants from top to
bottom

Fertility programs that are minimal, resulting in a "woodier" structured plant...less lush, if you will



Of course, this is only my opinion, and it may very well be me who is all wet.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Be careful what you wish for....
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2007, 09:17:53 AM »
Joe Hancock,

Your points are good ones.

What few understand is that the golf course and prep you describe would probably cause the golf course to "die" if the practices to get the golf course in tournament condition, and maintained throughout the tournament, were continued for a month after the tournament.

The transition for truely fast and firm conditions can take 2-3-5 years.

The problem is, most of TODAY'S golfers want lush, green conditioned golf courses for the season, and not the conditions that are a product of transitioning and maintaining the golf course fast & firm.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Be careful what you wish for....
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2007, 10:08:24 AM »
Thanks for that Joe, from the little I have seen of these "tournament" courses, I would agree 100%.

You, along with Mike Young, need to pay a visit to Huntingdon Valley some time, you'll like what you see as it pertains to that post...

tlavin

Re:Be careful what you wish for....
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2007, 11:03:26 AM »
While I certainly identify with the member hangover at Winged Foot following the Open, the lure of a major championship is a pretty strong pull, so I'm betting that the membership would vote to host another Open if they were asked.  I know that they chopped down a lot of trees, narrowed fairways and altered bunkers, but at least they didn't have to change the turf on their greens...

If that's the next step, I would vote no.  Changing from poa to the new bent grasses (unless you do an Oakmont clear-cut) is a prescription for grief.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Be careful what you wish for....
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2007, 11:38:02 AM »
Terry,  I sympathize with many of the issues you raise and I an in complete agreement regarding the reshaping of the 3rd and 15th greens at OFCC.  The old 3rd was one of my all time favorites.  While I agree that regrassing greens is something to be undertaken with caution, I think you are overstating your case.  Many courses have introduced the new strains with notable success even in the Chicago area.  Your problems appear to have surfaced after your long time greenkeeper left and the new (and since departed ) greenkeeper changed a significant part of the maintenance regimen.  Whether it was these changes or problems with materials supplied in the creation of the USGA medium is an issue but a "black layer" developed below the surface which your current green keeper is doing his best to eradicate via frequent aeration, top dressing etc.  This is a fairly unique problem that shouldn't be blamed on the grass.

There are issues with regrassing.  We have focused on whether bringing in new grasses will lead to higher green speeds and a move to flatten greens.  I also question whether it is necessary to utilize a USGA growing medium.  Courses like LaGrange have grown "A" series grasses on push-up and 7-2-1 greens with success.  Not only is it cheaper at the front end, it may be easier to maintain existing green contours.

But I'm only an old time green chairman.  What do I know?  I would be interested in hearing from the professionals on this one.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Be careful what you wish for....
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2007, 10:16:05 PM »
I'll bet that it won't happen in 2013.

I'm also bettng that the golf ball is rolled back.

Shoot - 12 and 15 greens are fantastic.  If you're dumb enough to put your ball back right on 12, you deserve the tragedy that will soon occur.  

Besides - isn't the course on the National Register of Historical Places?  If so, wouldn't they be subject to historical preservation statutes?  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re:Be careful what you wish for....
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2007, 10:22:46 AM »
I'll bet that it won't happen in 2013.

I'm also bettng that the golf ball is rolled back.

Shoot - 12 and 15 greens are fantastic.  If you're dumb enough to put your ball back right on 12, you deserve the tragedy that will soon occur.  

Besides - isn't the course on the National Register of Historical Places?  If so, wouldn't they be subject to historical preservation statutes?  ;)

Dan,

I love your optimism and practicality.   Let's be sure we get together and play soon.

Mike

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