Merion-USGA, Just kiss and say goodbye

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played Merion yesterday with three young fellows in their twenties and thirties who hit a LONG ball.  Our group was joined for the entire 18 by an architectural guru, Tom Paul.

I noticed a few things.

The bunkers have lost NONE of their strategic value.
The bunkers are deeper, adding to their strategic value.
The golf course has been lengthened, in some cases substantially.
The course has removed trees.
Some remnants of previous USOPENS remain, such as some narrowed fairways, #'s 11 and 18 stick out most.

Merion remains a wonderful, strategic, challenging golf course with great variety in the holes and in shot selection.

I know that Merion has a great traditions, including the hosting of US OPENS, but, perhaps the GOLF COURSE at Merion would be better off if no further US OPENS were conducted.

The fellows I played with were long, not just with their drivers, but with their irons as well.  We played from as far back as you can go.  For those of you familiar with the golf course I offer the following.  
# 5  driver-4-iron,
# 6  driver-9-iron
# 9  6-iron
# 12 driver-wedge
# 14 2-iron-7-iron
# 16 driver- 6-iron
# 17 3-4-iron

If this is the play of AMATEURS, I'm sure the PROS would be even longer, rendering the golf course a driver, wedge, putter
contest.  To defend itself against par, some would narrow the fairways and let the rough grow.

Over the years, some very good courses have never recovered their original fairway lines, once they were pinched in for an OPEN, detracting from the play of the golf course ever since.

Merion is such a great golf course, and apparently on a track to improve itself, an OPEN might set that back considerably.
Perhaps the golf course at Merion would be better off if Merion
Just kissed and said goodbye to the USOPEN.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

After visting with Mr. Shaffer and Curtis James and Mr. Seibel....I had the feeling that the club wants to just host Amateur events and they are happy with just that.  The clearing was great although I never saw the course with the past bunkering or the tree loads.  I can only commend those guys and say that the course looked great and they have planned to work on the quarry clearing and returning 16 & 17 to original photos.  Plus they felt that they may not have the carry capacity to host a Open or PGA.

I was there late August and you could definitely feel a sense of pride in their team concerning architecture and integrity of design.....which I later felt during my visit at Shinnecock Hills later that same week.  Shinnecock is also gonna remove more trees and the hedge at the Redan hole tee box...etc...etc.

I ahve some great pics of these courses...if anybody wants to help with posting...just let me know which holes people wnat to see etc.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,
I second the US Open notion but wouldn't the course be suitable for other USGA championships?

For those of us who don't know the course are these yardages correct?

5 - 418
6 - 420
9 - 193
12- 371
14- 408
16- 428
17- 220

[CHrisB]

Patrick,

How did #18 play from that back tee? Was the carry an issue for anyone, and what were the clubs hit in?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

The yardages are considerably longer, but don't show up on the score card.

# 5 for instance is now 490 from the back tee, now back next to # 2 tee.  I was told that # 6 is in the 440-460 range, and that # 14 and # 16 are considerably longer.

Chris,

I was told the carry from the back tee at # 18 was 247 to the fairway, about 240 to the rough.  With a slight breeze or drizzle that's a pretty good poke.  We had a little breeze in our face and tried to put too much umpf into our tee shots and hit them in the right rough leaving shots of 220-240 into the green.  The angle isn't the easiest either.

None of us understood why the 18th fairway was pinched in in several areas.  The fairway slopes pretty good right to left and it would be a far better hole if the contour mowing pattern was removed and the fairway widened.  Hopefully, that's on the agenda.   I was told that the narrow, contoured fairway is a vestige of past USOPENS.

[SPDB1]

Pat - The tee you played on for 5 was next to #2 tee??

so essentially the hole now plays dead straight?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB 1,

No, by back next to, I was refering to its distance, not its precise location which is a little further down the hill, retaining or increasing the angle of attack.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

Was everyone playing stroke play?  If so, what was the lowest score?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

We were playing stroke play, but not competitively, and the purpose of the day was for me to meet and play with two fellows who would like to obtain invitations to the Travis at GCGC.

They are very nice fellows, and accomplished golfers.
One just qualified for the USGA Mid-Am.

The only holes that gave the group a difficult time due to length were # 3 and # 18.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

Perhaps I should have been more clear.  In your initial post, I inferred that you were saying that Merion is now too short and therefore too easy to host future US Opens.  

My question was challenging that assumption, somewhat, and asking what the low score of the accomplished fellows you played with.  

Driver-4iron on 5, driver-6iron on 16, long and middle irons to the par threes, 220-240 left into 18....doesn't sound so bad to me.

After all, one could look at Augusta and make the same argument...Driver-wedge into 15, Driver-8-iron into 13, etc...

Oh wait..someone (Hootie Johnson) already made that argument.  

Still, I'm curious what the low score was at Merion on a course that was setup for daily play?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

At 490, driver-4-iron for amateurs is pretty impressive,
At 460, driver-6-iron for amateurs is pretty impressive.
At 205 to the pin on # 9, 6-iron is pretty impressive.

And, these are just amateurs, not pros, not PGA TOUR PROS.

As I said, we did not play a competitive round, we just played golf and socialized.

With Tour Pros, Merion would have to make their rough narrow and deep and the greens over the top fast to prevent scoring.  Are those conditions conducive to Merion's attempt to restore itself to its 1930 configuration ?

[Paul Richards]

Sounds to me like it's time for a tournament golf ball.
 

[Mike_Sweeney]

Jim Kennedy:
For those of us who don't know the course are these yardages correct?

5 - 418
6 - 420
9 - 193
12- 371
14- 408
16- 428
17- 220
[/quote]

On the card, 5 is 426, 12 is 375, 14 is 414, however they all have new tees in addition to 2, 3, and 18 that have not been recorded on the card. My guess is that Patrick and his partners played was in the 6650+ range, where it is still under 6500 on the card. However, there is absolutely no more room to stretch out the course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

A couple of things...

The 5th plays to 470 or so from the new tee, not 490, so driver at about 270 and an uphill 200 yard 4-iron doesn't sound too bad.  The drive is also downhill, although to a rising fairway, as you know.

The 16th plays at 445, so driver, 6-iron isn't too horrendous.

The 9th plays pretty significantly downhill, and even with my crappy game I hit 5-iron onto the green last time from the tips.

I'm not sure that accomplished national amateurs don't hit the ball as far as touring professionals, if not farther...except perhaps for the Daly's and Tiger's.  The difference, as you also know, is in their level of consistency, as well as the amazing touch and short games of the touring professionals.  

As far as narrowing the fairways, growing deep rough, firming and speeding the greens....isn't that what the USGA does just about EVERYWHERE??  Why is Merion exempt or worth special exclusion from the standard USGA setup?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You got #16 wrong--it was 2 iron-6 iron--he didn't hit that 2 iron on #16 that well--the 2 iron-7 iron on #14 was much more impressive and by the way guys some people say they hit some impressive club into a green and they don't mention they were 20 yards short of the green. This young man hit that 7 iron hole high to a back pin! He had around 190 in and of course the hole plays uphill all the way!

The really good drive though was a drive of around 325 right down the middle on #6 leaving him about 135 in.

Mike Cirba:

Michael McDermott is really long with everything--probably a good iron longer than the average touring pro! He's had some good success around here winning the Pa Amateur at Lancaster two years ago. But even that doesn't really mean much these days! His dad said he was playing against someone this year who was knocking it quite far by him and he mentioned that doesn't happen very often--but in golf there's always a bigger kid on the block somewhere!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

TEPaul is correct on # 6, # 16 and # 14.  I was busy worrying about my own game.

I was told by a member, who is on one of the commitees that the back tee at # 5 was 490.  But, with a creek running all along the left side, semi-severe right to left sloping fairway, the hole is no pushover, yet it was for these fellows.

Mike the problem that I see with hosting a USOPEN is that often the course retains some of the changes, ie the 18th fairway at Merion.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

I agree with you, but isn't that a question of maintenance?

If I were King of the World, the fairway on 18 at Merion would be contiguous with #14, nothing but closely cropped turf as far as the eye can see across that hillside.  I might also open up the left a bit, to let a shot that's hooking run all the way to the left bottom of the hill, into a potentially VERY awkward placement for the approach.  

I think the Gil Hanse interview on this site lists the 5th at about 470 yards.  Having played it from that tee, it felt like 490!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

McDermott hits 2-iron, and then 7-iron UPHILL 190 yards to a back pin at 14 and he played recently with someone who knocked it well by him??!!??

Why don't we just declare EVERY course under 7,300 yards now as totally defunct, and play ALL major tournaments on some of the 7,400 to 7,800 yard monstrosities being built today?

Hell with finesse...let's just make it a power game!  What a discouraging bit of news on the state of golf in the new millenium!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

That was part of my point, these are amateurs and they're hitting it distances that take many features out of play, or with precision, with long irons, leaving medium to short irons into the greens.  Since the PGA TOUR PROS, the best golfers in the world, hit it straighter and farther, perhaps Merion should say goodbye to USOPENS and be better for it.

[Paul Richards]

Danger, Will Robinson!  Danger!!

If, as you say:
>Why don't we just declare EVERY course under 7,300 yards
>now as totally defunct, and play ALL major tournaments on
>some of the 7,400 to 7,800 yard monstrosities being built
today?


Hootie, where are you?

When are we getting a tournament ball?

Help!

[TEPaul]

It really is surprising how far some of these guys are hitting the ball and what I was telling Pat is it's not that driver but  their irons which they hit much farther than the long hitters of yesteryear did.

It is surprising what's going on and the two Pat played with are very good players but there's something even more interesting going on too--that is that they really aren't scoring better on a course like Merion, if at all. I really don't think anyone is certainly not with regularity.

As for the reasons for that--it's hard to tell. Merion has cut way back on the fescue too, so that's not the thing.

Maybe it's the overall set up, the coming "maintenance meld"  but the other day the set up was very normal even mild!

So who knows, it's probably just old Merion and its everlasting mysteries--no matter who you are or how long and high you hit your driver, 2 iron and 7 iron you still have to really golf your ball to shoot good around there!

It will be very interesting indeed to watch this 2005 US Amateur to see who's gonna test whom!

Maybe there's something to these courses that have what I've always called a high "intensity level"--courses like Merion, Pine Valley and Huntingdon Valley in the Philly area. PVGC showed it in the Philly Open, I think!

That "intensity level" is sort of indefinable even to me--but at those kinds of courses I've always felt there's a certain sense that no matter how good you're playing you can never really get on a sort of "cruise control" that good players talk about when they're playing really well. There's a sense all day long that at any time something might go very wrong!

Did you get that sense at all Pat?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Paul,

There is absolutely an intensity level at the better courses. This summer, I played a round with my brother-in-law at Merion. He is an up and coming player having broken 90 a couple of times. For his day job, he is a cardiac surgeon, so he literally deals with life and death decsions and pressure on a daily basis. He hit his drive on #1 right down the middle, and then hit his wedge very solidly onto the green with a 2 putt for par. We then congratulated him on his par, reminded him how it would be great if he could break 90 on his first trip to Merion, how Nicklaus Trevino and Watson and other USGA champions often bogeyed that first hole at Merion.

Needless to say he hit OB on #2 and the day got worse from there ! Pro, amateur or hack, 125 yards in Merion will always be the same, you need precise shots to small slick greens to the correct side of the hole, or else you are looking at 3 putt. I have only played HV once, and never PV, but I assume they have the same sort of intensity level you speak about for all players

[Dave_Miller]

Patrick:

When I played Merion this summer with Chip, Ran and Ed my thoughts on the bunkers were similar to yours.  While they are not exactly the White Faces of Merion that I remember as a kid they still have great strategic value and can create an enormous challenge for any golfer of any ability.

I believe Merion is hosting the US Amateur in the near future and this may answer some of the questions as many of the players will be "Pros in Training".

Also the new tee on 5 is pretty far back and makes for a very different hole than what it is from the regular tees.

But any way you cut it Merion is still World Class in every aspect.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave

[Dave_Miller]

Mike Sweeney:

You gave the perfect description of Merion.  

You have to hit the perfect approach to the perfect place in the perfect spot on those greens or you are looking at 3 putt and on a couple of those greens even worse.

Cheers,

Dave

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Young Tom Paul

I think you've finally hit the jackpot with this "intensity level" concept!  Forget (or at least put on the back burner) such speculations as "maintenance meld" and "firm and fast" and "greens that don't dent."  This is the REAL THING!

It's all about the ability to place in the players minds the subliminal thoughts about that "significant other" that is on hte socrecard, not waiting for them at home.  This is one of hte very key things that the truly great courses haved in common.

Keep thinking and posting.

Rich

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