Merion-USGA, Just kiss and say goodbye

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

The greens at Merion may look small from the fairway, but,
they are very large greens, with a few exceptions.

[TEPaul]

Maybe another and better way to explain what I mean by a "high intensity level" on some courses like Merion, PV and HVGC is that to a much greater degree than most other courses I know of, most players, probably any player, simply has to play "defensively" on many more occasions than most courses.

Particularly good players just don't like to do that. There are even some good players who really don't even understand what that means, as hard as that might be to imagine!

But I believe if good players, for instance, don't understand that or don't do that, if they play those types of courses enough they should figure it out.

The reason they should figure it out is because eventually something about those courses will catch them up and make them pay over and over again (it's the architecture stupid!!) and they logically should come to see why and start to play that "high intensity level" defensively where they need to!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Is that intensity level and need to play defensively (it's amazing to read your post because I had these exact thoughts and words..."i.e. "defensively"...in the shower this morning) largely due to the fact that the "risk/reward equation" has such a razor-thin margin for error on those courses?

At Merion, for instance, you can hit a lot of "good shots", but if you aren't coming in at the correct angle, or aware of where the next "safe place" is to play to, your score can balloon quickly.

  

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

At PV and HVGC I think a lot of the "intensity" is that you can get into many places from which it's just very hard to recover from easily. That's true too at Merion but to a lesser degree, I think!

Merion is a bit of a mystery that way to me but I think it's  just all about the architecture of Merion through and through really, it can just sort of grind you down anywhere and everywhere for reasons that aren't all that clear or visible (it definitely a bit more visible at the other two).

All these courses can be played well though, but it takes a lot of good shots to do it but even more it takes some REAL concentration--much more than on almost any other course I know!

[Michael McDermott]

Pat and Tom and fellow posters:

I am not a normal visitor or poster to this site, but this topic has grabbed my attention, and I was compelled to reply. (Plus, my rather mediocre round on Saturday has been referred to on a number of occasions. If i knew the score would be requested, I would have grinded a bit harder.)

I want to particularly address the question of how Merion will stand up during the 2005 US Amateur.  I just got back from the Amateur at Oakland Hills, a course that I believe to be as good and hard as most that I've ever played.   At the tournament players dinner, I sat with Green, Courville, Knapp, and a number of other Mid Am players (I really enjoy calling myself a mid-am), and we all projected the cut for match play.  The consensus rested around 148.  Reality ended up with a playoff at 143.  

The point of that story is that we all underestimated the quality of the college players games.  We looked at many of the tight, well bunkered, 480 par 4's and felt that would be a difficult hole for the majority.  In reality, with the technology and skill level being displayed today, those holes just aren't as hard anymore.  Furthermore, the younger players focus so much on their length and driving abilities that courses like Oakland Hills are right up their alley.

In stark contrast are your questions about Merion.  Just to clarify on some of the shots I hit Saturday:

5 iron into 5.  (Well, not all the way into it!)
Wedge into 6
6 iron on 9
SW into 12
2iron 7 iron into 14
2 iron 5 iron into 16

I would assume that most of you have played Merion, but my feeling is that Merion is the longest 6600 you will ever play.  The short holes are short, but the long holes play as long or longer that the yardage.  Compared to many of the national championships in recent years, Merion will reward variety.  Merion will reward creativity and precision.  Merion will reward patience.  Merion will give every player in the field an opportunity to grind their way to a great score.  

Bottom line is that Merion is going to challenge the parts of people's games that recent championships perhaps have not exposed.  The US Amateur is still a match play event, and while I hope to be a participant in those matches, I feel that it will host a wonderful match play event.

In 2005, people may very well shoot low scores during the qualifying rounds.  There is nothing wrong with that.  In fact, we should celebrate the skill level of the amateur golf world today if that happens.  We should not look at that as some sign of inadequacy of a golf course.  We certainly didn't when the college kids at Oakland Hills were lighting up the South Course - even more so that the greats in the 96 Open.

Who knows, we may even get a mid-am into the round of 16 or 8 at Merion in '05.  That wouldn't be a bad thing!

Thanks for a great day on Saturday, Lew, Tom and Pat.

Michael McDermott

[Steve Sailer]

Why not just reserve Merion (and Cypress Point and other 6500 yard classics) for the U.S. Women's Open? Prairie Dunes seemed like a big success this year.

That raises a more general question: How would the distance and accuracy of Annika, Karrie, and Se Ri in 2002 compare to that of Bobby, Walter, and Gene in 1927? Do the top women today have to deal more with the classic architect's strategies than Tiger, Phil, and Sergio?

[TEPaul]

Mike McDermott:

That was an unbelievably good, solid, honest and thoughtful post of yours on Merion, it's strengths, possibly perceved  weaknesses and how the course may pan out in the future in USGA events.

Of course we can't forget how good some of these young ams coming up are and you would know that much better than most any of us!

But as long, strong and talented as you are Mike, I'm certain that you must feel that there is something about Merion that's slightly indefinable as a very good, very interesting, and very testing golf course for the ages.

Be honest, there are lots of golf courses you probably feel you can beat up on but would Merion ever be included in that category when it's set up to show itself well?

I would bet good money you would say Merion is not in that category and probably never will be. You already, I think, explained why quite well!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Looking at Mike's club selections on the holes he posted,
is it time for Merion to focus on Amateur golf ?

Mike Cirba,

You've played Merion, do you feel that Mike circumvented the architecture and design features with his play ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael McDermott;

Thank you for visiting and for a wonderful, insightful post!  I hope you come back to share your views, because you certainly seem to have a keen understanding of golf courses and the state of the current game played at the highest levels.

Patrick;

Listening to Michael, I don't sense that he feels he "circumvented" the architecture of Merion at all.  Granted, he hit a lot of short clubs, and obviously hits the ball considerable distances, but he seemed to be saying that the course still holds up well, and presents an almost unique challenge despite his length.

If I'm reading him correctly, he seems to be saying that a Merion might present a truer and more intriguing test than many courses over 7,000 yards, which can otherwise be battered into submission with length alone.

Would you agree?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I'm sort of surprised at you! You asked Mike Cirba if he thought Mike McDermott circumvented the architecture at Merion.

What architecture are you speaking of? Mike Cirba doesn't know Mike McDermott and has never seen him play anyway.

And frankly almost all the meaningful architecture for a player like Mike McDermott is at the green and green end and for many good players through the eras always has been.

Of course, hitting the ball long distances may be considered to circumvent the architecture of the greens and green ends to some extent, but I doubt it! There really isn't any possible to way to circumvent the architecture of Merion most of which is at the green and the green-end!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike & TEPaul,

Carrying bunkers with the driver and hitting short irons into greens intended to accept long irons or woods is circumventing the architecture.

A wedge approach is different from a 3-4-iron approach,
if not circumvented, ameliorated might be the term,
then again, it might not.

[ChipOat]

Golf course architecture/design/strategy can be circumvented/ameliorated on any given hole IF there is a "design advantge" given to the longer hitter.

That is, does the big hitter actually have WIDER landing areas than the "originally intended" landing area?

Or, is the longer hitter able to drive it in places where the angle of attack to the green/flagstick (forget the shorter club and shorter distance) is actually EASIER than from the "originally optimal" landing area?

If so, then the original architecture becomes moot, or at least diluted, until the green is reached, IMO.

There was a thread on strategic design in January that got me into all this and Pat Mucci did one not long ago on "Angled Greens" which really gets to the heart of this. More recently, Tom Doak (I believe) started a thread called "Is Strategic Design Dead?" or something like that.

In the Doak thread, I believe Tom's point was that THERE IS NO ANGLE OF ATTACK THAT TODAY'S TALENT CAN'T EASILY OVERCOME.  That the precision shots that scare the hell out of me (and, I presume, the rest of us) are just total non-events anymore to the top players.  Maybe those guys can circumvent the architecture.

For most, though, I believe the long hitter needs a little help from the architect before any hole's design is rendered moot due to the natural advantage of length.

[moman (Guest)]

Where are all of you Fazio haters? When Pat tells you how wonderful Merion is you go underground. I have seen post after post about how Fazio ruined Merion.

[Tim Weiman]

Moman:

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Concern about the work done by the Fazio organization at Merion has been expressed many times. The concern focused on the aesthetics of Merion's bunkers and was balanced with recognition that many other positive things are going on, e.g., a tree removal program that has been very well received.

Do you want to revisit the bunker issue? Is there anything new on this subject? Do "Fazio haters" need to bring up this subject with every thread someone starts about Merion? Do you think this was the specific topic Pat Mucci wanted to address?

Here's a thought you might want to consider: concern about one aspect of a golf course maintenance program doesn't mean someone "hates" the architect involved", does it?

[moman (Guest)]

My point was simply that evidently Pat does not believe that Fazio ruined Merion.

[Tim Weiman]

Moman:

That was pretty clear from his post.

I don't see any inconsistency between positive overall impressions about Merion expressed by people like Pat and specific concerns expressed about bunker aesthetics by other observers.

Do you?

[Mike_Cirba]

Moman; (don't you just love the guys who come on here anonymously...sheesh )

I should let Patrick speak for himself, but on a prior thread, after playing Merion for the first time since the redesign of the bunkers, he offered his belief that they are going to need to be "done over" in a few years, due to the awkwardness of their "bathtub" like surrounds.

He also expressed concern with the aesthetic and playability aspects, primarily of the fescue rough on some of them.  

I'd dig up the prior post, but frankly, I don't give a damn.

[Michael McDermott]

Tom,

In response to your question about how Merion stacks up against some of the other "championship courses" I have played, I would say that it has provided to me as much of a challenge as any.  While I have had many more rounds at Merion, I still can only claim 69 as my lowest score.  I can claim lower scores at many other challenging courses in far fewer rounds.  

Mike Cirba,


You got my point exactly and that is that the 2005 US Am is going to test the skills of players that the 7200 yard courses we are beginning to play now just don't.  I can't just pull driver off of every tee at Merion, swing away and know that I will have anywhere from 6 iron to SW left in.  Every shot requires a separate strategy, and especially in the match play competition, you will see certain holes that one day may be a 3 iron off the tee and the next day a driver.  It will test not only the shot making that Merion reuqires, but a keen sense of strategy that match play on that course will expose.  Holes like 2, 4, 7,8,10,15 can be played with completely different approaches.

There was also a comment saying that Merion gets more open on holes where a longer hitter can hit it by the trouble.  I was curious if anyone could point out those shots for me.  I can not place their location.  

Michael McDermott

[TEPaul]

Mike McD:

That's a good point about not being able to hit the ball past trouble at Merion. A long hitter might hit it by some trouble that concerns shorter golfers but there is always some more waiting for the long hitter too. And like you, I can't think of many places at Merion where you just sail past everything!

So, as such, I don't see that anyone can circumvent Merion's architecture, particularly since much of the architecture of that course and others like it like PVGC and HVGC is at the green and green-end anyway!

I guess guys who hit it as far as you do could hit it past or try to circumvent the green-end and green but I'm sure you'd agree too that wouldn't do your score much good!

[Dan Kelly]

Michael McDermott --

Thank you very much for checking in with us here.

I have one question for you:

Several (many?) of us here believe that there's a single, simple answer to the architectural issues that advancements in golf technology have caused (and will continue to intensify) -- a single, simple step that would restore and maintain not only the apparently undiminished virtues of Merion's architecture, but the apparently diminished architectural virtues of, just to name one course among many, Oakland Hills.

The solution we advocate is a juiced-down Competition Ball --which could periodically be re-engineered (further down-powered) to keep advances in golf-club technology from making classic course designs obsolete for the best players.

What do you think of the Competition Ball?

[ChipOat]

Michael McDermott:

I did not specifically say that Merion was an example of "design advantage" for the long hitter - I was speaking generically.

However, since you asked, that situation is rare at Merion but it does exist.  Specifically, #'s 1 and 10 could use some tightening past the bunkers, IMO.

On #1, the fairway is wider on the left over the left side fairway bunkers.  The longer hitters have enjoyed that advantage for as long as I can remember.  On #10, the fairway becomes wider on the right past the last fairway bunker.  Also, the big hitters can now count the front of the green as accessible.  Because the distance is further than on #1 and it's uphill, this is a fairly new development (10 years or so) since graphite+titanium increased carry distances so dramatically.

What I should have said to be more clear is that, excepting #'s 1 and 10, the long hitters cannot circumvent Hugh Wilson's and William Flynn's (tee ball) strategy at Merion.

By the way, I agree with everything you said.

[Michael McDermott]

Dan Kelly,

I feel your solution is the right one.  While people have looked at my length and comment that technology has helped me, I believe that on a competitive level it has done the opposite.  For example, 7 years ago I may have hit a driver and a 9 iron or wedge into a 410 yard hole.  Today I most likely would hit a driver and depending on conditions, a Pw or even sand wedge.  Many other players 7 years ago would have hit a driver and a 5, 6 or 7 iron into that same 410 yard hole - a hole that at that point was still a decent length par 4.  Today that same person may also be hitting a 9 iron or PW into the hole.  My feeling is that technology has actually hurt some of the longer players.  On that example, I went from hitting perhaps a PW to now a SW - boths clubs that are very controlled already.  Player #2 changed form hitting a 6 or 7 iron to a 9iron or PW.  That change in control is substantial between those clubs.  

That is a point I have argued with many people before when they tell me how technology has helped me.  Anyway, I think the idea of a "Tournament Golf Ball" is a good one, but the logistics could be challenging.  Personally, I wouldn't want to use any other ball if that became a rule.  It would be silly to practice or play all week with a ball that went further that the ball I need to use in tournaments.  

Golf is the only sport that does not have its own standard ball.  Basketball, baseball, football, tennis, soccer, etc all have that standard set.

Take care.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Moman and Mike Cirba,

To draw an analogy, perhaps not a great one, picture a beautiful woman, whose dentist didn't do such a great job fixing her bite, and capping her teeth.  She's still a beautiful woman, but needs some additional dental work.

The bunkers at Merion remain strategic, in fact their deeper depth makes them more strategic.

However they are difficult to enter and exit.

In some areas we saw the bunker wroll deteriorating,

And, on other bunkers, the grass wraparounds on the lips appeared to be having agronomic difficulty, AND, I posed the question to some, how and can they be maintained, and will their maintainance result in higher labor and budget expenses.

But, from a strategic perspective their value is hardly diminished.

I hope that clears up MY perspective after having seen and played the golf course with the help of some critical and competent architectural afficianados.

I'd be happy to discuss any aspect of the bunkers with anyone who has also played the golf course recently.

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci,

Your comment about being happy to discuss Merion's bunkers with anyone who has played the course recently is quite interesting.

What about people who haven't? Should they just go away?

Does your standard apply to all courses all the time?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

The problem is that most people think she had a world-class, wholly unique, wonderfully beguiling smile before all that dental work!

To add to your cosmetic surgery analogy, it's sort of like giving a set of fake Double-D's to Jaclyn Smith!!

Thanks for expanding on your answer.

Wait a sec...what's that sound??

Oopss...I think that's Moman's car heading quickly out of town...  

Nothing like hit and run by the cowardly!

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