Golf Digest State rankings out

[Bill Gayne]

It sounds like to me that Tobacco Road suffers from some of the same design and engineering limitations that Strantz's Stonehouse course in Virginia. It still has some fun shots to play but a lot of it doesn't work such as the 13 miles of cart path, long cart path to green and tee walks, a green that they can't consistently grow grass on, five plus hour rounds, fairways that have been reduced in size because the maintenance wasn't practical, large and steep bunkers that require above average maintenance.

As with most things that are overly designed or engineered it becomes expensive to maintain.

On the other hand, Royal New Kent which is twenty miles down the road is one of my favorites.

[Tim Gavrich]

I did a quadruple-take when I didn't notice Caledonia listed among the top 25 in South Carolina.  For shame, Golf Digest, for shame!

I also laughed out loud upon seeing the Connecticut ranking list.  The level of favoritism towards the most commercial places (*ahem* Lake of Isles) is truly disquieting.

[Doug Ralston]

Doug

Why are you getting so bent out of shape about a few reviews that disagree with the ones who put TR within the elite upper echelon of great golf courses?  No post that I've read has said anyone should not keep their own opinions. Its that kind of blind faith that leads me to the cult status statements about TR.  Enjoy it.  It has several thrilling shots which I do think makes for fun golf but I also noticed its flaws both in playability and the way it was built.

"bent out of shape"?

No no. I have not yet had an opportunity to play Tobacco Road. My point is more broad. There seems to be a fantasy that golf is only 'properly' played on courses that fit into a preconceived set of design features. My 'worthy' vs 'unworthy' concept is literally upheld by the dogmatic groups that promote limited ideals of this sort.

TR is hardly the only 'unworthy' design that receives the wrath of these shaman. All that Arthur Hills designs, much that Tom Fazio designs, upgrades done by Reese Jones, to name some examples; all are targeted for being of 'unworthy' ideals. Sometimes even admittedly good courses "would have been better" done by those whose designs are part of the 'worthy' crowd [Bay Harbor, for example]. Though utterly unprovable, the treehouse 'dittoheads' will shrilly shout down anyone who doubts the faith.

As is known, I too have certain 'quirky' courses that, though virtually unvisitted yet by the 'raters' of Golf Digest, Golfweek, Golf etc; still I would uphold for great and joyous design.

I am quite eclectic actually, and have loved courses of many varied natures, yet I find I must uphold those that do not 'fit in' to GCA dogma because they need a defender. It's what I do in other fields of endeavor, 'play devil's advocate'.

My real ultimate point is a basic mistrust of narrow positions. It's a tough job, I know, but somebody must do it. Looks like that will be ................
Doug

[Tommy Williamsen]

There are some interesting things about the rankings that seem to go unnoticed.  Check out the number of public(*) venues in MI as compared to NJ.  

In which state would you rather play golf?
MICHIGAN
1. Crystal Downs C.C., Frankfort
2. Oakland Hills C.C. (South), Bloomfield Township
3. Arcadia Bluffs G.C., Arcadia*
4. Lost Dunes G.C., Bridgman
5. Tullymore G.C., Stanwood*
6. Forest Dunes G.C., Roscommon*
7. Bay Harbor G.C. (Links/Quarry), Bay Harbor*
8. Timberstone G.C., Iron Mountain*
9. Wuskowhan Players, Club West Olive
10. Treetops Resort (Robert T. Jones), Gaylord*
11. Black Lake G.C., Onaway*
12. Shepherd's Hollow G.C. (2nd/3rd), Clarkston*
13. Red Hawk G.C., East Tawas*
14. True North G.C., Harbor Springs
15. Lakewood Shores, Resort (Gailes) Oscoda*
16. The Kingsley Club, Traverse City
17. Elk Ridge G.C., Atlanta*
18. R. & S. Sharf G. Cse., Rochester
19. Oakland Hills C.C. (North), Bloomfield Hills
20. Grand Traverse Resort & Spa (The Bear), Acme*
21. Franklin Hills C.C., Franklin
22. Eagle Eye G.C., East Lansing*
23. Barton Hills C.C., Ann Arbor
24. The Wyndgate, Rochester Hills
25. Indianwood G. & C.C. (Old). Lake Orion

NEW JERSEY
1. Pine Valley G.C., Pine Valley
2. Baltusrol G.C. (Lower), Springfield
3. Somerset Hills C.C. Bernardsville
4. Galloway National G.C., Galloway
5. Plainfield C.C., Plainfield
6. The Ridge at Back Brook, Ringoes
7. Trump National, Bedminster
8. Baltusrol G.C. (Upper), Springfield
9. Atlantic City C.C., Northfield
10. Ridgewood C.C., (East/West) Paramus
11. Metedeconk National G.C., Jackson
12. Hamilton Farm G.C., Gladstone
13. Hidden Creek G.C., Egg Harbor Township
14. Mountain Ridge C.C., West Caldwell
15. Hollywood G.C. Deal
16. The Bedens Brook C., Skillman
17. Shadow Isle, Colts Neck
18. Royce Brook G.C. (West), Hillsborough
19. Pine Hill G.C., Pine Hill *
20. Nehansic Valley G. Cse (Ridge/Lake), Nehansic Station *

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoff:

Tobacco Road is one of the few courses that we differ greatly on . . . while I can't say I know of the engineering failures it woud stink to play it cart path only, that's for sure.

The only short coming TR has is its want of Grace.  There's nothing soothing about TR and I think the testosterone overload is what turns people off.  

Having played it only once I relish the next opportunity.

Jason

Jason

I suspect we don't differ that greatly.  Do you think that TR has "similar" architectural merit as Engineers, Yale, Friars Head to name a few that I know you have played but are not on the GD list of Top 100?

Would you vote TR as a Top 100 overall or even Modern?  If you do then perhaps we differ greatly.

[cary lichtenstein]

Stonehouse is not in the same case as Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent.

Those in the treehouse who do not like either, I respect your opinions, please don't play them so we who love the over the top architecture, ala Salivador Dali, will have a shorter round

To those who haven't played it, if you like quirk, it is great. If you like creativity, it is great. If you like to hit it 270 off the tee and a 175 yard 7 iron to a flat green, you will not like it.

It is a treat for those who are open minded, have better than average games or can accept a few double bogies without their ego's being bruised.

Those who love minimialism will 100% hate it and I can understand why.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Cary

Its not about not appreciating and enjoying quirk (though some of it does not work at TR) or caring if a double or two show up on a card in a casual vacation round.  It's about whether "over the top architecture" should be considered among the Top 100 golf courses as you suggest for TR. As big and bold and wild as Engineers CC is it is NEVER "over the top". Same for Yale, Eastward Ho and others you lumped together.

[JR Potts]

Would it be unseemly to suggest that a rather large percentage of the GD raters don't seem to know their arses from 18 holes in the ground?  

Damn right that's unseemly.  And don't make me start firing at the GW list.  I've received a LOT of info off-line...

Nothing like a good threat to get the waters boiling.  

Tom:  I'd be more than happy to share some GW rating stories re: Medinah.

[Tom Yost]

The Arizona Summary:

4 - Nicklaus
4 - Morrish/Weiskopf
3 - Morrish
3 - Weiskopf
3 - Fazio
1 - Morrish/Bailey
1 - Fought/Lehman
1 - Fought
1 - Lawrence
1 - Panks/Graham
1 - R. Jones
1 - Engh
1 - Stephenson/Mickelson

The oldest course on the list is from 1962 (Desert Forest)
All the other courses are 1984 or newer.
19 of the courses are 1990 or newer.
11 of the 25 are 2000 or newer.
All but one (Troon North) are private courses.
Courses with Morrish and/or Weiskopf total 11 (44%)


Tom

[Andy Troeger]

Tom Y,
Thanks for compiling the information RE: the Arizona listing. It is interesting how much influence Weiskopf and Morrish have on the listing, as well as how many of the top courses in Arizona (looking top 10) are from the "forested" areas of the state--Flagstaff, Payson, and Sedona.

If all goes according to plan I'll get to tackle my first of that group in a few weeks when I play The Rim in Payson, looking forward to that one.

I also think that once its gotten enough play that We-Ko-Pa Saguaro will become another public course that deserves to make that listing.

[Andy Troeger]

MICHIGAN
1. Crystal Downs C.C., Frankfort
2. Oakland Hills C.C. (South), Bloomfield Township
3. Arcadia Bluffs G.C., Arcadia*
4. Lost Dunes G.C., Bridgman
5. Tullymore G.C., Stanwood*
6. Forest Dunes G.C., Roscommon*
7. Bay Harbor G.C. (Links/Quarry), Bay Harbor*
8. Timberstone G.C., Iron Mountain*
9. Wuskowhan Players, Club West Olive
10. Treetops Resort (Robert T. Jones), Gaylord*
11. Black Lake G.C., Onaway*
12. Shepherd's Hollow G.C. (2nd/3rd), Clarkston*
13. Red Hawk G.C., East Tawas*
14. True North G.C., Harbor Springs
15. Lakewood Shores, Resort (Gailes) Oscoda*
16. The Kingsley Club, Traverse City
17. Elk Ridge G.C., Atlanta*
18. R. & S. Sharf G. Cse., Rochester
19. Oakland Hills C.C. (North), Bloomfield Hills
20. Grand Traverse Resort & Spa (The Bear), Acme*
21. Franklin Hills C.C., Franklin
22. Eagle Eye G.C., East Lansing*
23. Barton Hills C.C., Ann Arbor
24. The Wyndgate, Rochester Hills
25. Indianwood G. & C.C. (Old). Lake Orion

There is a lot of good golf in Michigan, and a lot of good public (and reasonably priced) golf in Michigan...its just a short season in which to actually play there. When you think that Point O'Woods, U of M, Pilgrim's Run, and Angels Crossing (plus the 9 hole Dunes Club) are not on this list there's just a lot of good golf to be played.

As Tony Nysse also mentioned before, I cannot figure out how the Point slipped so far so quickly. I was surprised when it fell to #10 in the state in 2005, I don't even know what to say now. I'm sure those who are not fans of RTJ could find 10 courses to put ahead of it, but I'd challenge anyone to come up with 25 (and defend the rationale).

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mike - I knew you were kidding - it's all in good fun between you and me - but my line was too good to pass up.

And GOOD MAN, Kyle!

I loved that episode....

With sails unfurled,

TH

Sukat, his eyes uncovered.

Are you standing in for Lieutenant Sulu?  

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary

Its not about not appreciating and enjoying quirk (though some of it does not work at TR) or caring if a double or two show up on a card in a casual vacation round.  It's about whether "over the top architecture" should be considered among the Top 100 golf courses as you suggest for TR. As big and bold and wild as Engineers CC is it is NEVER "over the top". Same for Yale, Eastward Ho and others you lumped together.

You have a valid argument, we just see it thru different eyes and process it differently, that's why some like chocolate and others like strawberry.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I had not noticed that Point O' Woods had dropped  off the MI list.  It can't be because it does not deserve to be there.  

[Matt_Ward]

It amuses me to see the effort Digest puts into its state rankings and the results that come forward.

They are generally flawed in so many ways.

For example --

*In Wyoming -- no matter if Rochelle Ranch is not in tip top shape it clearly belongs among the top five courses there. How 3 Creek Ranch gets the top spot is beyond my comprehension.

*In New Mexico -- Black Mesa is CLEARLY the best course in the Land of Enchantment. As a word of note -- it is also a big time error on the part of Golfweek that the course dropped in its modern course listing although it is still among its top 100. Candidly, if Paa-Ko-Ridge is rated among the top 40 public by Golfweek then Black Mesa has to be rated just a bit higher among such courses.

*In New Jersey -- Plainfield is the #2 course in the Garden State. How Baltusrol / Lower gets such a position stems from hosting high profile major events - the quality and totality of the architecture is just not there. One other note -- Somerset Hills is a fine course but is vastly overrated when other Garden State layouts (e.g. Montclair, Essex County and Forsgate, to name just three) are not even mentioned. One final quick note -- The Ridge at Back Brook at #6. Surley they jest. Ditto the choices from #16 through #20 -- they are all laughable.

*In Michigan -- The Kingsley Club is ONLY #16 !!! I'm falling off the chair. And no mention of Greywalls at Marquette GC? Have to say Golfweek missed the ball on Greywalls as well in not being mention in its top 100 modern.

*In Nebraska -- May have been too early to be considered but Dismal River is easily a future member among the state's top ten courses.

*In Utah -- The Hideout deserves consideration for a top ten placement in The Beehive State. Forrest Richardson did a superb job and the overall topography there is indeed well done. Glad to see Digest still has Glenwild at the top -- it's one of the 2-3 best TF layouts I have played and when I see so many other of his layouts land top 100 mention on Digest's listing I know few people have played the layout in Park City.

*In Colorado -- Can someone help me with this continued fascination with Sanctuary? I like the course but when compared to other Engh layouts it is not superior to Pradera and Lakota Canyon in my mind. Frankly, Redlands Mesa is a wonderful layout -- not 4th in Colorado in my book though. How does Bear Dance in Larkspur not even get mentioned?

CC of the Rockies is the 6th best? Yeah right!

Ballyneal deserves a higher rating -- easily among the top five. I have to laugh when I see Red Sky Ranch's TF layout among the top ten -- a big time error. The Norman layout is easily among the best five I've played in Colorado and Golfweek fumbled the ball on not including among its top 100 modern as well.

*In Connecticut -- Great River 5th in the state. I'm rolling on the ground with laughter. Yale is clearly being overlooked by Digest folks and this in their own backyard.

I have a few more states to mention.

Clearly, on the state level Digest is shooting far more blanks than hitting on target.

[Andy Troeger]

*In New Mexico -- Black Mesa is CLEARLY the best course in the Land of Enchantment. As a word of note -- it is also a big time error on the part of Golfweek that the course dropped in its modern course listing although it is still among its top 100. Candidly, if Paa-Ko-Ridge is rated among the top 40 public by Golfweek then Black Mesa has to be rated just a bit higher among such courses.

Matt,
I'm not so sure I buy that BM is "CLEARLY" the best here in NM. Its very good and I would personally agree with you in that I'd put it in the top 100 as well. However, I'd do the same with Paa-Ko Ridge, and I think its pretty hard to say that either one is definitively better than the other. I do agree that I like both of them better than a couple courses currently in the top 100.

I think Paa-Ko tends to stay ahead of Black Mesa in the ratings because Black Mesa I think tends to polarize opinions, there are those out there that just don't like it. I don't say that because I agree with them, just because from what I can tell that's the reality of the situation.

RE: Kingsley, it suffers from panelists again that didn't care for it, and until their ratings drop off I think you'll continue to see it slowly climb up the Michigan listing (#22 in '03 to #20 in '05 to #16 in '07). I think it will get to the Top 100 eventually, but its going to take longer than many would like  

[Brian_Sleeman]

Greywalls just needs more raters...from what I hear, the average score of the ones who've turned up so far put it in the league of those in all these lists.  Just need to hit the minimum number to qualify and then it'll show up.

[Kirk Gill]

In Colorado, why no love for Denver Country Club?

The GD raters obviously like their mountain golf.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I can say that the Oklahoma list looks right to me. Not really a very hard state though, the choices are fairly obvious.

[Sam Morrow]

I can say that the Oklahoma list looks right to me. Not really a very hard state though, the choices are fairly obvious.

Where would you rank Tulsa CC and Twin Hills?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I stand behind what I said -- I've played both courses in NM several times and BM is the best -- no contest.

If you see it differently so be it.

In regards to the conditioning argument you mentioned -- Paa-Ko has had its moments -- both up and down. Ditto for Black Mesa.

The people who whine against Black Mesa have never articulated in clear fashion what it lacking. In my mind, Black Mesa is not only NM's best course but is a top 100 play in the USA among the courses I have personally played.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Fair enough, as I said I don't disagree that BM is great, just think Paa-Ko is too. I didn't say anything about the conditioning at BM, it was in good condition when I played. I just get the impression that there are those who genuinely don't like BM (again, not sure why...I don't find it that severe and played the whole round with 1 ball despite hitting it into the desert a few times). Paa-Ko seems to be a little more generally accepted, hence the higher ratings (at least that's my theory)!  

As a duo they are as good as it gets for sub-$100 public golf!

[astavrides]

I have to laugh when I see Red Sky Ranch's TF layout among the top ten -- a big time error.

golfweek had red sky ranch #1 in CO public courses.  Did you miss something about that course?  

[Matt Vandelac]

Although I understand it takes a while to get some courses visited enough to be rated, what about the ones that have shown up and  the order they're in??  The Minnesota chart is amazingly off IMHO.    Considering some of the newer courses over the old Ross, Tillinghast, and Raynor courses is hard to believe to me.  

[jeffwarne]

Palmetto GC, not in top 25 in SC.
Caladonia ,not in top 25.

Sage Valley #3.

Do Golf Digest raters enjoy open bar priveledges at the courses they "rate"?