[Sean Walsh]

Muirfield is a wonderful course and I can see how it is the favourite Open rota course of the Pros (I'm sure I read this somewhere).  They I'm sure would see it as a very "fair" course, there's not too many suprises most things are layed out in front of you.  

It's strength is that it would be a searching test for the very best golfers without the wind having to come into play too much.  

It's weakness from my point of view is that ofr all but the very best golfers there are probably 6 par 4's you won't reach in 2. It is tough playing a majority of your round Driver, 5W/3i, wedge/bump&run.  Another slight quibble is that 3 of the Par 3's have a certain sameness in the look of them.

It is a brute of a course that will beat you around the head if you don't measure up.  I was happy with how I played and still got beaten up.  This with no wind, slow greens and very light rough.  

Muirfield I'm happy to experienced but have little desire (at the price) to subject myself to that punishment again.  This for me contrasts with my feelings for The Old Course where each time I finish a round I feel like starting again.

After saying all that I gave it a 9.

Also the property is most definitely not flat and uninteresting  

[Mark Pearce]

Muirfield is a wonderful course and I can see how it is the favourite Open rota course of the Pros (I'm sure I read this somewhere).  They I'm sure would see it as a very "fair" course, there's not too many suprises most things are layed out in front of you.  

It's strength is that it would be a searching test for the very best golfers without the wind having to come into play too much.  

It's weakness from my point of view is that ofr all but the very best golfers there are probably 6 par 4's you won't reach in 2. It is tough playing a majority of your round Driver, 5W/3i, wedge/bump&run.  Another slight quibble is that 3 of the Par 3's have a certain sameness in the look of them.

It is a brute of a course that will beat you around the head if you don't measure up.  I was happy with how I played and still got beaten up.  This with no wind, slow greens and very light rough.  

Muirfield I'm happy to experienced but have little desire (at the price) to subject myself to that punishment again.  This for me contrasts with my feelings for The Old Course where each time I finish a round I feel like starting again.

After saying all that I gave it a 9.

Also the property is most definitely not flat and uninteresting  

Interesting view, Sean.  I've always found that Muirfield is a course where if I play well, I can beat my handicap but if I play badly I get eaten up.  I'm not over-long (I reckon to drive the ball 260 when playing well, maybe a bit longer on a really good day) but only 10 is usually an issue with reaching if I hit a decent drive, though 8 and 9 can be a 3W approach.  The key to scoring well (as it is at St Andrews) is keeping the ball out of those bunkers.  I can see that shorter hitters might find it a bit of a hike and the lack of a choice of tees could be a reason to criticise the way they set it up.

[Michael Christensen]

sitting here in the hazelbank...waiting for my 3:10 tee at the old this afternoon, thought I would chime in..

Muirfield is a very fair course...there are a few bunkers you cannot see, but the majority are seen from the tee/fairway....if you keep it straight, you should not have too much of a problem (I didn't to start off on 10 and was in 5 bunkers the first 4 holes)...once my driving got in gear, it was a load of fun.....being able to actually run balls into greens was a hoot (do not see much of that in georgia these days)

I thought the routing was phenomenal......when the wind kicks up, watch out...we had a pretty docile day, I would hate to think how hard it would be with the winds I see outside in St Andrews today

I give Muirfield a solid 9.......having not played all the big boys around the world, I really cannot say what is a ten or not...have played Pine Valley once and the forced carries really killed me...being a short hitter, I need as much run room as possible  

great playing with Tony, Mark, Philip, David, Sean and Eric

and finally...the dinner I had at Greywalls merits a 10....putting green about a 5 right now due to the season, but seeing the members teeing off 10 with their dogs on sunday was a real treat!

[James Bennett]

Yes, I'll go 9.

I described Muirfield as the type of girl you are likely to marry - she does not reveal all of her chracter in the first meeting.

The foursomes in the afternoon was a wonderful way to revisit Muirfields hidden secrets, and to see the course in a little better light (very misty for the morning).

The routing is something to experience, and many memorable holes.  And a unique style of 'roll-in-rivett' bunkering.

James B

[Geoffrey Childs]

To me, a perfect ten is Pine Valley. Does anyone here think that Muirfield is its equal?

Bob

Surely someone has to take the bait.

Bob

OK Mr Huntley, I'll be your fish

To Tiger Woodsand his competitors I would think Murifield would be the equal of Pine Valley.  Also, to probably most 15 or so and higher handicap players Muirfield would also be the equal or better then Pine Valley.  It is certainly more of a "test" to the great player and it is "more playable" to the poorer player.

[Mark Pearce]

To me, a perfect ten is Pine Valley. Does anyone here think that Muirfield is its equal?

Bob

"A perfect ten"?  I thought we were supposed to be attempting to use the Doak scale.  Nothing there about perfect 10s.

I've never played Pine Valley, so can't comment and even here I suspect that the subset of posters who have played both will be small.  However, Sean's comments aside, I reckon anyone can get a ball around Muirfield and their score will reflect how they played.  It sounds to me from descriptions of Pine Valley that the same doesn't apply there.

Would I consider Muirfield to be Pine Valley's equal if I played PV?  From what I've read and from pictures I've seen I'd be very surprised if I didn't.  Of course, the chances of ever finding out in real life are pretty slim

[Bob_Huntley]

To me, a perfect ten is Pine Valley. Does anyone here think that Muirfield is its equal?

Interesting view, Sean.  I've always found that Muirfield is a course where if I play well, I can beat my handicap but if I play badly I get eaten up.  I'm not over-long (I reckon to drive the ball 260 when playing well, maybe a bit longer on a really good day) but only 10 is usually an issue with reaching if I hit a decent drive, though 8 and 9 can be a 3W approach.  The key to scoring well (as it is at St Andrews) is keeping the ball out of those bunkers.  I can see that shorter hitters might find it a bit of a hike and the lack of a choice of tees could be a reason to criticise the way they set it up.

Bob

"A perfect ten"?  I thought we were supposed to be attempting to use the Doak scale.  Nothing there about perfect 10s.

I've never played Pine Valley, so can't comment and even here I suspect that the subset of posters who have played both will be small.  However, Sean's comments aside, I reckon anyone can get a ball around Muirfield and their score will reflect how they played.  It sounds to me from descriptions of Pine Valley that the same doesn't apply there.

Would I consider Muirfield to be Pine Valley's equal if I played PV?  From what I've read and from pictures I've seen I'd be very surprised if I didn't.  Of course, the chances of ever finding out in real life are pretty slim

Mark,

If you can drive the ball 260yds you will have no trouble plaing Pine Valley.

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

Mark,

I meant to add that if you can drive the ball 260 yards, or more on a good day, you will have no trouble playing Pine Valley.


Bob

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

I meant to add that if you can drive the ball 260 yards, or more on a good day, you will have no trouble playing Pine Valley.


Bob

Presumably keeping it straight matters too

[James Bennett]

Mark

not as much as at Muirfield.  However the greens at Pine Valley are a little more challenging than Muirfield.  Not to demean Muirfield in any way with that comment, but Pine Valley's challenges start after the 260 yard drive (the 'pre-qualifying' shot before the event really starts at Pine Valley).

James B

[Philip Gawith]

I'm a big fan of Muirfield and would categorise it as one of those courses where the whole is more than the sum of the parts. I agree there aren't any weak holes, though it is also true to say that there are probably not that many which are really memorable. Overall I would agree with all Mark says about the course, including the bunkering. If you are as modest in the sand as I am, you do not want to visit some of these places. The coffin cross-bunker on the right of the 17th is not a place you want to visit in a medal round!

If I had a criticism it would be that I still struggle in my mind to separate 12,14 and 15, despite having played the course a number of times. More fool me! I agree with James that it is a course whose appeal unfolds over time.

My favourite holes are 2, 3, 6,8,11, 13 and 17 - probably the holes with the most character, and possibly challenge too.

Two reasons why it is such a good experience over and above the merits of individual holes are: first, it is a fantastic property/routing, and the ability to see so much of from the clubhouse is a very attractive feature. Second, the clubhouse evokes the history of the game more powerfully than any other i have visited. And, whatever its foibles, it is obviously a wonderful club - I always love visiting it. There are not many golf experiences that can equal a visit to Muirfield.

[James Bennett]

My favourite holes are 2, 3, 6,8,11, 13 and 17 - probably the holes with the most character, and possibly challenge too.

Phillip

excellent post.  Regarding those favourite holes (which are the most memorable in my eyes as well).  They have the most movement of the ground as well.  (the other holes with significant movement are 4 par 3, 5 uphill par 4 and 12 downhill par 4.  4 was quite good, as was 16 of course - the other par 3'a at Muirfield).

15 I recall because of the architecture from the different tees - the regular tee is a straight away hole with diagonal cross bunkers set into a ridge.  A long drive will carry these easily and catch the speed slope on the right and kick way down the fairway.  It is a line of charm along the left edge of the fairway.  The championship tee takes the shortish cross bunkers out of the hole and puts a corner bunker just befoe the speed slope on the line to the green.  It is a line of charm down the right side of the fairway.  I would like to discuss this more in a weeks time when I return home.  The two faces of #15 are worthy of analysis.

James B

[Michael Christensen]

Philip brings a real good point....recounting my round(s) I couldn't remember the difference between 12 and 14 either...15 had the other tee which stuck out (great angle as mentioned by James)

regarding the history of Muirfield, when I sat down to lunch a member introduced himself stating that the Honourable Company was older than America....they take great pride in hosting outside guests and love to show off their course/club....they are very welcoming as long as you follow the rules (I would hate to be the chap caught on security camera taking pictures in the clubhouse...I would imagine his pic would be posted for future reference!)

[Sean Walsh]

It has been discussed on this thread that this is a very good routing.  But is it?  There are some wonderful green sites and these have been utilised well.  The course is I believe subjected to a prevailing westerly wind, also from what Tom Doak said about archerfield there is an easterly about 25% of the time.

In view of this and with regard to the long par 4's

3 X 440+ holes play either directly (or close to) into the prevailing wind
2 x 440+ holes play with the prevailing wind across them
2 others 440+ play somwhere between cross breeze and downwind to the prevailing wind.

Is this the sign of a good routing?

In regard to the par 3's
3 of them play from West to East
1 East to West.
yardages from back tee to front of green are 162, 168,172 and 171.  Not exactly varied.  3 of them also have a similar look from the tee.

Is this the sign of a good routing?

The shortest 2 shot hole is 347 yards the next is 354yds (from the yellows)both would play cross wind the majority of the time

For variety's sake would it be preferable to have a shorter hole or at least something of these lengths playing either downwind or into it.

[Chris Cupit]

I thought what was so "important" was its break from the traditional "out and back" method of routing.  Also, I think at most, three holes play in the same direction.

In terms of routing itself to take best advantage of the land, why didn't they use the land closer to the water?--you only see the water on the 5th hole and 6th tee.  I heard last year they had land for another course between the existing course and the water?!?! Of course, I have never walked and don't know if it is at all suitable or not, but just looking from #5 it was a pretty view.

I agree about the par 3's completely though.  I liked 4 and 7 alot.  #13 was too  long at 195 yards and #16 was just so-so.

All the same length --#13 at 170 would be a far better hole than at 195.

[Philip Gawith]

Sean - you Ozzies specialise in these cookie-cutter discussions on what constitutes an "ideal" routing! I recall some theological discussions about whether Kingston Heath is a good routing....

Anyway....yes, you can argue that holes should point to all angles of the compass and be a fabulous mix of lengths and no-one would dispute that that brings variety which is broadly a good thing. BUT - in the case of Muirfield, surely you can see the appeal of a course which in the outward nine essentially moves clockwise round the outside of the property; and then in the inward nine moves, broadly, anti-clockwise within that outer nine?  Isn't that in itself fantastically original, overriding any of the perceived defects you allude to?

Certainly it is the case that the par fours at Muirfield generally play quite long - but I would argue that that is a feature of the course, something that sets it aside, not something that should be held against the course. Others will feature more short par fours, and that will be fun too.

To summarise, I think one can go too far with this idea of a courses needing to meet some idealised sense of "internal" balance. If all courses went that way, golf would soon be very dull!

[johnk]

I think Bob H. is correct.  To me, Muirfield is no more than an 8.

The weak holes to me are: 1, 10, 11

Several holes seem fine, but not great to me: 2, 5, 9, 18

The land getting away from the clubhouse is simply not that good, and the holes don't elevate it to greatness, in my mind.

As a flame-bait example, I think the New course has more thrilling holes.

And I did play foursomes with Mark Pearce, who believes Muirfield is the finest links in the world.  To each his own

[Darren_Kilfara]

When I first played Muirfield, I thought it was about an 8. Now, maybe 5-6 rounds later, I think it's a 10. Not every course has to be quirky to be great; Muirfield is probably the greatest virtually quirk-free course I've played, a true exercise in subtlety. To compare golf courses to classical music, I tend to prefer mine to be a bit Wagnerian, but Muirfield is wonderful Mozart, each element perfectly balanced into a beautiful symphony.

By the way, how many courses did Doak rate as a 10 in his book? Off the top of my head, it must be a good 20-25...point being, Bob (and others), a course doesn't have to be the equal of Pine Valley to rate as a 10. A 10 rating simply means it is an elite course, Top 20 in the world or thereabouts, and not the best course in the world.

Cheers,
Darren

[Chris Kane]

Darren from memory the 10's are Royal Dornoch, Muirfield, The Old Course, Ballybunion, Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, Crystal Downs, Pine Valley, Merion, National and Shinnecock.  That makes 11.

[Mark Pearce]

I think Bob H. is correct.  To me, Muirfield is no more than an 8.

The weak holes to me are: 1, 10, 11

Several holes seem fine, but not great to me: 2, 5, 9, 18

The land getting away from the clubhouse is simply not that good, and the holes don't elevate it to greatness, in my mind.

As a flame-bait example, I think the New course has more thrilling holes.

And I did play foursomes with Mark Pearce, who believes Muirfield is the finest links in the world.  To each his own

Interesting how people rate holes so differently.  Philip has 11 as one of his favourites, you think it's a weak hole.  I can't see 1 and 10 as weak holes, both are tough par 4s but in my book good ones.  Interesting comment from Darren.  Perhaps this is a course you have to play several times to really appreciate?

[Darren_Kilfara]

Thanks for setting me straight, Chris. (Mind you, you still owe me an e-mail regarding our proposed Machrihanish trip!) Still, if it's top 10-15 instead of top 20-25, the general point still stands.

One thing I really liked about Doak's "31 flavors" at the start of The Confidential Guide is the way he rated individual golf holes the way that one would rate chess moves - "!!", "!", "?", "??" "!?" and "?!" are all very descriptive in a very tidy fashion. By that reckoning, here's how I'd rate the 18 holes at Muirfield:

1
2 !
3
4 !
5 !
6 !!
7 !
8 !
9 !
10 !
11 !
12 !
13 !!
14 !
15 !
16 !
17 !
18 !

I can't think of any other course that I would rate like this - it wouldn't be a stretch to give 1 and 3 a single "!" as well. Even most other great courses would have a few more blank ratings; perhaps a few more "!!" marks, but for me it's the consistently high quality of Muirfield which makes it an outstanding course. There really aren't any weak links in the chain!

Cheers,
Darren

[Mark Pearce]

I really like that approach, Darren.  Here's my take on Muirfield

1  !
2
3  !
4  !
5  !
6  !!
7  !
8  !!
9  !
10 !
11 !
12
13 !
14 !
15 ! (very nearly a !!)
16 !
17 !!
18 !

I'm surprised people struggle to differentiate 12 and 14, since 12 is really a drive/wedge hole downhill and 14 plays significantly longer.  15 is beautifully bunkered and has a very large, very interesting green and is very distinct from 12 and 14.

[Chris Cupit]

Darren,

Sorry but I am a loser with e-mails--I'll get better and I am still hoping to sneak over this year.

Funny, I thought #11 was fantastic.  It is certainly a difficult and intimidating tee shot and the green can be brutal downwind but I thought it was the first tee shot that was really interesting visually.  

Granted there are many tough tee shots--#1 may be the toughest opening tee shot around, #6 is tough, #8 although the way the course was set up with the fairway overly pinched in at the turn, it took away any choice of hitting driver and kind of ruined that shot...

#9 is tough and pretty cool, #11 I love, and then #17 was hard.  Everything else was just kind of bland--even #18 with the fairways pinched was a lay up short of the bunkers unless it was really downwind.

Again, I gave it an 8 which is still a good/great score.  My only experience was 5 rounds one week last year and I think it was set up a little different from normal (and I played like crap) so both those things could have prevented my giving it a "10"

Maybe a big part of my dissapointment was the narrowness of the fairways for the tournament.  They seemed to dictate what you hit off the tee versus giving you a reasonable choice.

[Shane Sullivan]

With regard to women and Muirfield . . . my experience was generally positive.

The club knew I was playing and I was greeted and shown to my locker room by the starter who made sure I knew where to go and what to do.  He met me after the round and showed me to the Captain's Room for lunch (loverly sandwiches!).  Luckily Matthew was there to bridge the chasm from me to the bar so I was able to enjoy a beer.

One strange thing - there was no tea or coffee - just hot water.  And there was nothing I could do about it.  I couldn't go and ask for coffee (just as well I got the beer).

Everyone was very friendly and I had a nice chat with one of the oldest and longest serving members as he walked home after his round.

So, women are allowed as long as they are accompanied by a man.  

Also, dogs are definitely allowed.  There is even a drink bowl and place to tie them up at the front of the clubhouse.  In fact the owner of the B&B we stayed at told me they had recently had plumbing work done throughout the course so dogs could get a drink during the round.

[Rich Goodale]

I always attributed the "No dogs/No Women" sign to Elie, but I could be wrong....

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