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Paul_Turner

St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« on: September 13, 2002, 10:05:53 AM »
How about this hole (by guess who ;)) for interesting angles of play.  It's a very short par 4, at about 280-290 yds downhill (I think).

The pin position completely dominates the tee shot.







(Thanks to Jeroen Pit for the pics!)



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2002, 10:22:56 AM »
FANTASTIC!

Woe be to those who go right with the pin where it is in the last photo...

Curious though, how far is it to clear the middle bunker?  Is driving the green a possibility?  Looks like it is and if so, that even adds to the wow factor... talk about choices....

Thanks for posting stuff like this so often, Paul.  Pictures do speak 1000 words.  And damn, the more holes like this I see, the more of a Colt-aphile I become.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2002, 10:35:37 AM »
Paul -

Great stuff. Keep 'em coming. Most of us know very little about St. George's Hill.

Do you think the hole has some kinship with The Bottle Hole at NGLA? The long diagonal bunker is closer to the green at St. George's, but it sets up choices from the tee in a similar way. Just speculating. I've never seen either hole in person.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NAF

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2002, 11:04:23 AM »
I played this hole twice last month and have played it I think 4 times now.  The triangular green is the most interesting part of the complex and I never got to play it with the pin in that position.  I don't think there is any danger on the tee shot at all, the total strategy of the hole is in PUTTING the slopes..Being in any of the bunkers here is not a problem.  The hole begs for you to try and drive it as you don't really get penalized for doing anything but.  The green is a huge target and if the pin was left (as it was the 4 times I played it) you can bomb with a driver and if you slice or fade it (as most will) you wind up in a nice flat collection area in front of the right bunker and have plenty of green to work with via a delicate chip.  If the pin is right like that you could still try and drive the green but like Paul said it drives the tee shot..You would probably lay back with a mid iron.  Regardless there is a ton more green here than you can see and I've never seen anyone I played with do worse than par on this hole..In fact my English friend who is a member there walked away with one time and said very disappointing in typical english humour!

Paul, lets get some pix of #1, #8 and #10...those are the best holes at SGH...I have some if you want to scan them.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2002, 11:07:23 AM »
Pleased you like the pics!

Tom

I was off a little on the total yardage.  It's only about 270 yds downhill, maybe 245 over the front bunker?  So I think big hitters could have a crack.  Or how about squeezing the tee shot down that left hand side alley-pin high- for any easier pitch?

I haven't played it, so I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2002, 11:09:48 AM »
Noel seems to have taken a little
of the steam away here, Paul!  He makes
it sound a lot easier than the pictures
would show.

BTW, Bottle at NGLA is a LOT longer -
404 from the regular tees.  The bunkering
does have a certain kinship though
I suppose...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NAF

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2002, 11:36:08 AM »
Huck-Paul's heart is in the right place here. The green is very interesting, large with a lot of slope and a two putt is no gimmee..This just isnt a very tempting par 4 as Geoff Shack talks about in his last book. I don't see most people walking away with 6 or 7 on the hole and no real risk to going for the green.  If you layback and play for par then yes the tee shot is the vital component.

I would say the hole plays 260yds with a driver.  I almost got home with a 3 wood one time.  SGH does not play firm and fast like Woking or West Sussex so you need to carry the distance although if it had Woking's shade of brown you could bounce it over the bunkers.  It is still a good hole just not as tempting as it might appear on the card.

One thing, notice the right bunker..Way too CLEAN on the bunker edging..I saw that last year and it hasnt improved. The work was done over a year ago and it looks rees-esque.

SGH is a fabulous course.  I don't think it best on the heath because while there are some amazing holes (1,2,8,10,11) in my opinion it just doesnt play as fast as I would like to see.  The vistas are great, no weak holes I just find the golf more inspirational at Swinley or at West Sussex.  The genius of SGH is in a great 27 hole complex (the 3rd nine is much underated) with a fab clubhouse and regal feel.  I disagree with Doak here and challenge anyone to go play West Sussex and disagree with me.  I guess the par 68 at W.S. is what would make some think it inferior to SGH.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2002, 11:42:00 AM »
NAF - thanks for the clarification!  These pics
plus your words make me feel like I've
played the hole and isn't that one of the
greatest things about golfclubatlas?

Thanks again, guys.  This is really
cool, however this hole actually
plays.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2002, 12:04:43 PM »
Wow.
Those pictures make you want to put the tee in the ground and go.  How much to carry the front bunker?  Talk about temptation!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2002, 12:43:58 PM »
Noel

I disagree from the photo. Like Lynn says, it looks extremely tempting and a good player is going to be pissed off taking a 5 at a 270 yd hole.  It doesn't have to be a do or die-2 or 7- to be a great short 4.

Isn't accuracy off the tee a premium with the back right pin?  And with what sounds a tricky green, isn't the pitch always tough if you short side yourself for any pin postition?  Granted, if the conditions aren't firm the pitch is less interesting.

It looks better than any of the short 4s at Swinley   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NAF

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2002, 01:07:48 PM »
Ah, Paul our first fight!!!

The picture is inspiring, but I have played the hole..You know how I can wax poetic and be inspired by lovely golf holes, this one in the words of Colt is simply not his finest.  Can you tell me you like that right bunker shape..You stand on this tee and have NO Fear of hitting a driver..The green is huge even with that pin placement you can two putt by just hitting the center of the green with 2 easy strokes. And if you get on 3 is possible. So what is the downside??? None, the bunker shots are easy, there isnt even heather to catch a poorly struck explosion shot. There is no creek, no hazard to prevent you from going. The shot is downhill and easily within reach at 260yds.. I'd rather play Woking #1. Not as visually stunning but more tempting!!! Why, the Maintenance MELD!!! Help me out TEPaul.  At Woking #1 you can reach the fallaway green with a 3 wood because at 280yds it is so fast and furious..but if you are long, you are toast, in the woods..you go from 3 to 6 in a hurry. This won't happen here and thus why I don't see it as tempting.  Our mutual friend JR never exhorted to me how wonderful the hole is and he loves SGH with passion. The pix are great but I repeat this hole is average.  There needs to be more danger here to tempt me. At Woking when I drove the green I was exhilirated, here I was ho hum..

And Paul, RT might have issue with some of those par 4s at Swinley.  We should get together soon to go over my pix at Alpine.  Will be in touch... :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2002, 01:24:33 PM »
Noel

Woking #1 better than this, even with the "maintenance meld"?  You've lost the plot!  :D

It doesn't have to involve fear, the tee shot is (looks) inspiring.   How can you imply it's a straight forward 2 putt when in your first post you imply the contours are rather difficult?

The pitch shot on the 3rd photo looks difficult to get close even from that almost ideal angle!

What's behind the green for a back pin?  It looks like it drops off.

This is the sort of hole that  can play havoc with the very good player's mind.  They expect a 3 but probably make 5 just as often; and in doing so, throwing off their concentration for a couple of holes after.

We need JR one here.  From just reading the CG, I'm pretty sure T Doak would support  my stance.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NAF

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2002, 01:44:41 PM »
Paul,

It is probably 300+ on the fly to get over the green and no one here but Matt Ward has that game so over the green is not trouble.  They keep the greens well tended at SGH and you can hold the green here..if it was Woking-esque you could easily bounce it over as on the first there..but I think the woods are about 20 yards past the green complex here.

The pitch does look scary from that third shot but I can'e EMPHASIZE enough how big this green is.  We aren't talking about a postage stamp.  You have to hit a horrible pitch to miss the green at all. Huge margin for error.  I have contradicted myself about the putting, I admit that but the temptation in the hole comes from the tee shot..If you make a mistake you should be facing 6 not 3 and this tee shot tells you nothing but to BOMB away despite the pin locale given the size of the green. I would not try and make 3 with the pin where it is in this shot but if it was center or left I certainly could attack the hole with aplomb.  I think if Darwin wrote about this hole he would not be impressed.

BTW, I think Sir Peter Allen glosses over th hole in his review of the course as average..I will retake a look tonight at his book..

Woking #1 is a very uninspiring shot visually until you play it the second time.  Visually it will never be appealing but mentally when you know what lies below the ridge obscuring the green 250yds out, your blood will rush thru you veins, the blood will rush to your brain and you will get numb.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2002, 01:59:03 PM »
My first reaction to the photos were that they reminded me of photos of Riviera #10. But after reading Noel's description this hole doesn't appear to have the same "up and down" difficulty.

The more I look at it the more it seems like the 17th at the University of Florida course, a drivable downhill four (especially for the collegians) with a sort of indescribably contoured triangular green. A phalanx of bunkers intrudesfrom the left with one more on the right (and a "ramp" between), and there are bunkers 6 to 8 feet below the putting surface left and right of the green to punish off-line drives. Like this hole a back right pin (is the pin in the photo a back pin?) is treacherous.

This certainly is a lovely hole, however!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul_Turner

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2002, 02:17:22 PM »
Noel

Oh well, we'll just have to disagree.

But does this hole really give up many simple 3s?  Jim would probably know.  I think the very fact that your English friend was "disappointed" with a par, shows that the hole has plenty going for it!  

And doesn't it come at a perfect point within the whole round?  After two really difficult par 4s and a tough par 3, isn't the good player itching for a birdie with the big drive and if he doesn't get it, or gets a five, then the hole is even more potent!

I don't agree that a poor tee shot on a short 4, should necessarily have a player facing a 6 or worse.  

Looking forward to Alpine.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeroen_Pit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2002, 03:10:05 PM »
I really enjoyed the decision you have to take on the 4th tee but agree that there is plenty of room for error whatever club you take.

Is anybody aware if the green of the first hole at SGH was ever on the plateau on the right (see photo).  I recall reading this somewhere.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2002, 03:43:57 PM »
Peter Allen: " The fourth is a very short par 4 with a triangular green surrounded by sand over which you must hit a most delicate pitch; you can easily lift your silly head and fluff it into the bunker."

"Of all the inland courses of Britain, I think I like this one best and I believe Colt said that this was his favourite work (he didn't-it was Swinley).  It is not the toughest inland course-Walton Heath is that-or as well known as Sunningdale, but for variety and beauty to my mind it has no equal."
 ;D

Jeroen

The green was moved at about 1925.  The photo you have of the photos in the clubhouse shows this green; I can just make out the writing.  It looked VERY difficult!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NAF

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2002, 01:36:52 PM »
Paul, is SGH you favorite Heathland Course?.. My list goes:

Swinley
West Sussex
SGH
Woking/Addington tie
Sunningdale Old
Sunningdale New
Royal Ashdown Forest
Wentworth (not played but seen)

Obviously need to add Worpelsdon (heard they lost their heather), Walton Heath, New Zealand, West Hill and Berkshire to have it rounded out.

Believe it or not, I think Woking and the Addington are probably the most fun to play on the list from a maintenance meld perspective but that depends a lot on what day you play the Addington.

#1 at SGH is my second favorite hole there after #10.  Despite the green being moved, the saddle the green sits in is very natural and the uphill nature of the hole makes an approach challenging to measure to snug it up to the hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2002, 04:25:57 PM »
Noel

I haven't played SGH.  I do have pics of every hole and it looks super; great rolling terrain with a great variety of holes.  My guess is it'll be between Swinley and SGH in the final (SGH looks like it has better green contours than West Sussex).  Walton Heath is very different from the others and Allen is right it's definitely the hardest, with probably Sunnigdale New second.  These two are probably the most true to the open heathland style.

I really like Woking but I wouldn't put it above either Sunningdale.  Great greens, but the rest isn't a match for the Old or New.  I think I probably like Royal Ashdown more than you in relation to the others.  I just love the routing on that course-a perfect walk- and it has a uniqueness.  The Addington is very special, completely original like Ashdown; I recently found an early photo of the 10th without the lime tree; I hear it's back like that now.

I found an aerial of the 4th and can see what you mean about there being more space than perhaps the photos show- the bunkers end at about the mid-point in the green.

But I don't think that really detracts from the hole.  Wouldn't the drive be less tempting if the bunkers completely surrounded the heavily contoured putting surface?  Particularly in the summer when the course should be playing firm.  This sort of length hole is probably the most difficult to design and keep both drive and pitch interesting throughout the year:  And Colt writes about this in "Some Essays on Golf Course Architecture"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim Reilly

Re: SGHl 4th - matchplay heavan
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2002, 04:50:46 AM »
Paul and Noel,

I hate not to be able to declare either one of you "right", but the fact is it depends on what perspective you come from.  Noel's observations are pretty much spot on.  It's only about 240 to carry the front bunker.  I've lost count the number of times I've played the hole and I've never seen anyone with a handicap of less than 8 lay up.  My member friend usually hits 3-wood (and a wood wood at that) to the center of the green.  Granted, he is an old blue, but Noel is correct that the only danger is going left or long.  I disagree with Noel that long is not a possibility as I've seen players go long which results in a semi-blind chip/pitch (possibly from heather).  

What hasn't been discussed enough is a giant ridge that defines the far right pin placement.  You can see it best in the second photo.  The result of this ridge is actually to make the hole play easier for players who go for the green and miss it right when the pin is on the right hand side, but other than that, it is what keeps the hole being a par 3.75 rather than a 3.  The upper (i.e. left side of the green) is a good 1.5 feet above where the pin is placed in the photo.  Therefore, if you miss it right or put it in the right bunker, you have a nice backstop to stop your pitch/explosion shot and can, therefore, be more aggressive.  Now, if the pin is left, and you miss it right, you have a long explosion shot or pitch and must also negotiate that ridge (which turns a straight forward pitch or bunker shot into something a little more tricky).  Basically, if you drive the green and are on the wrong side of the ridge, good players two putt about 50% of the time.

I think it is a good hole in a stroke play context because you must take note of the pin position and figure out where not to miss it.  That being said, I think it is a great match play hole.  I've come to hole and watched my playing partner put it on the green with his drive, but on the wrong side and a long way from the hole.  I've then played 6 iron/SW and won the hole with a 3.  Noel hasn't had a chance to play SGH in firm conditions yet.  In firm conditions, putting off the green from the left side is a real possibility.  SGH was particularly soft the last time I played it with Noel.  In defense of the set-up, SGH is a much more severe golf course than either West Sussex or Woking.  Many of the greens are of the inverted saucer variety and cut into or perched atop the hills the course is routed around and over.  Therefore, the well contoured greens of SGH can become even more difficult because the effect of the greens being built on hilly terrain.  

I love Swinley, West Sussex and Woking (in that order), but still favor the Hill over the previous three.  There are many reasons for this, but the first one that always comes to mind is variety.  470 yard 2 shooters (SGH has the widest fairways of any of the listed courses, but like Pinehurst, just because you're in the fairway doesn't mean you've got a shot), 110 yard one shotters, fantastic contours through the green (which I don't think any of the previous 3 can match), a great set of greens with varying sizes depending on the approach; but lets be realistic guys, have you ever found yourself wishing you were playing somewhere else while playing any of these 4?  I haven't.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Laun (Guest)

Re: St George's Hill 4th-Interesting Angles
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2002, 09:44:50 AM »
I agree with Jim - virtually everyone goes for this green from the tee. Laying up brings the fairway bunker on the left (about 90 yds short of the green?) into play - this is just about the worst place to be (apart form behind a tree or in a ditch - I've been in both).

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »