Is the USGA responsible for slow play?

[Steve Lang]

Mucci,

I'm ready,.. are you???...

I can agree, to a degree, environmentalists do suck, they whine and bitch and cause all sorts of bad things to occur for their 15 minutes of fame and media driven political purposes, definitely unreal... mis-using most science.... idiotic and  bad!  The few with advanced degrees have no internal organizational checks to question their positions and opinions... The dark side then prevails... unlike the world of GCA..  

Did you know the Silent Spring thesis has been disproven... its likely that West Nile Virus will bring back DDT...

Did you know that in a recent polling in Australia, over 70,000 folks identified their religion as Jedi?

Regards,
Seve' the Enviro. Engineer

p.s.  I'd prefer to build a wetland to offset losses than build around one.

[Michael Whitaker]

There is a difference between "slow play" and "long rounds" with waiting to hit shots. There is such a thing as "slow play," and that can be a problem.

However, I think most people are really upset with having to wait to hit their shots and the time it takes to finish a round, not just "slow play." It's the standing around and waiting to hit shots that gets you upset whith the group(s) in front of you. While you're waiting you nicpick everything thing they do... lining up putts, checking distances, looking for balls, etc.

If you didn't have to wait and could finish in a reasonable time you wouldn't really care what the group in front of you was doing.

Not one person has listed the primary reason for slow play. What you've listed are the things that upset you when you have to wait to hit your shots, resulting in a "long" round. What is the primary reason for long rounds and waiting? Too many golfers on the course.

Read this article and then tell me what you think about the real cause of slow play:

SLOW PLAY: WHO’S REALLY AT FAULT?

[Steve Wilson]

TXSeve

I know this is off topic but an interesting multiple choice question might be:

Which book caused more deaths due to the implementation of philosophy?

A)  Mein Kampf

B)  Das Kapital

C)  Silent Spring

D) The Communist Manifesto


But to get on topic I'll suggest another villain--golf gloves.  I played recently with a fellow who took his golf glove off to putt and didn't start putting it back on until it was his turn to hit on the next tee.  And the donning of the glove was something akin to performance art he put it on finger by finger, smoothing out all wrinkles, and then examining it before reaching in his bag for his driver and removing the head cover.   Now if it had been (insert name of beautiful woman here) it might have been worth the wait, but by the time we finished I was about ready to help him with it.  I swear we must have lost ten to fifteen minutes for the round due to this mannerism.

[Evan Fleisher]

Clemnet,

As a fellow Industrial Engineer, I say BRAVO to the article you linked to!

There are always small things we can do as golfers to imrpove the speed at which we play, but just as in his LA freeway example, if the "pipe" is too small, there will never be adequate "flow" to get the job done.  Such a seemingly simple solution that more and more courses should be either taking a look at or experimenting with.

I would love to get ahold of Mr. Yates myself and see if there is any way I could get involved in his studies.  Maybe I'll drop him a line...

[CHrisB]

Clemnet,
I read the article you cited and will concede that the problem of slow play in America is indeed a multi-faceted one.

But the fact remains that you can take the same players off of the congested American courses and over to the courses of GB&I, where the course routing, set-up, management, tee time structure, etc., etc., etc., is conducive to faster play...AND THEY ARE STILL SLOWER PLAYERS.

I have played here and in GB&I, on a casual and competitive level, for almost 20 years, and almost across the board, Americans are slower players.

Period.

I am not a slow player by American standards, but when I feel like Faldo when I play over there.

True, overcrowding courses leads to slower playing conditions (esp. in a shotgun start, which by definition can only go as fast as the slowest group on the course).  But on a single tee start, how can a course full of fast players be overcrowded?  With fast players the only place overcrowding can occur is on the first tee, if the tee times aren't spaced far enough apart, and then once the round started things would go at a good pace.  Think about it, overcrowding off a single tee start can only occur if someone on the course is slow.  Otherwise, what would everyone already on the course be waiting for?

In my view, the primary cause for slow play is--PLAYERS WHO DON'T TRY TO PLAY FAST.  It may be one group, it may be the whole day's groups, but the primary cause lies in human behavior, and not the secondary causes that Mr. Yates is trying to combat.  Not being ready to play, over-reading putts, taking too long to decide on a club to hit, long preshot routines, (not to mention walking slow, taking water/food/bathroom breaks,...) etc.  If you don't believe it, just go "over there" and watch how long it takes for the locals to hit a shot.  They just step up and hit it, and many times you'll swear they aren't trying.

"It is not my (or our) fault" is a very popular idea nowadays, and Mr. Yates is doing a good job of playing that up in his sales pitch.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  If he takes it as a given that players are going to play at the pace that they're going to play, and then tries to alter all of the other variables to speed up play, and it results in faster rounds, then that's great.  But to deny that golfers in this country don't play as fast as they could is to deny reality.

But don't get me wrong--I sure am glad that someone is trying to do something about slow play, and apparently succeeding.

Disclaimer--not all Americans are slower, not all from GB&I are faster.  Just the vast majority.

[Stan Dodd]

Clemnet,Interesting article but the research is flawed,  have you played at any of the Sacramento course cited as flagship of this program.  8 minute tee times and still 5-6 hour rounds.  Slow play is because players play slow.
I agree management has a role but what  course that promotes mandatory carts, beverage carts (your concern from another thread) is going to strictly enforce any slow play policy that would make people not want to spend $$.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

I'm not an engineer, but I think if you think of a golf course as a sewer or a drainpipe, and you think of four-balls as pieces of sludge that you have to push through that pipe, it is childishly obvious that the speed with which you can get the totality of the sludge from one end to the other will be limited (on the "speed of elimination" metric, at least) to the viscosity of the most viscous piece of sludge in the pipe.

In golfing terms, if you have a 35 four-balls on the course who can all get around in 3-3 1/2 hours, but one 4-ball in the middle of the course that is doing all those things that Dave and others have enumerated, and playing at a 5-hour pace and not letting anybody through, the whole course will play at a 5-hour pace.  Ipso facto.  E pluribus unum. Semper ubi, sub ubi.  Yates, Knuth et. al. seem to think that the answer is to statistically measure the rate of flow of the sludge rather than make ample use of the golfing equivalent of Drano......

I have observed such phenomena starting in the early 1980's in Scotland, and I have to admit sadly, as a native and otherwise proud Murcan, that the offending pieces of sludge were not Romanians or aliens or even people from Kirkintilloch.  They were and are my brethren, and they did adn do not reinforce my pride in my country as a golfing nation......

Finally, Tim Weiman hits the nail very much on the head in his anecdote as to how he was taught to play golf.  Speed of play is (or used to be) all about common courtesy, respect for your fellow human being.  To me, golfers who play oblivious to the pace of those in front of them and behind them are disrespectful of all the other players on the course.  But, in these days when it is all about me (or my mates) who really cares.............?

To get back to the topic of the thread, not the USGA, IMHO.

To get back to GCA, how about that "Redan" hole?

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

My penultimate sentence/paragraph SHOULD have read:

"Yes, not completely, but definitely.  IMHO."

Even more humbly........

Rich

[THuckaby2]

Rich(ard):  assuming American golf holds any interest for you any more, given you do seem to believe the USGA is partially responsible for slow play, do you have any recommendations for improvement?

Or have we beaten this to death too many times already?  

You knew I couldn't just let that slide.  

TH

ps - wanna know the real cause of slow play?  Double-shotgun, 144 player charity scrambles.  I played one yesterday that took nearly SEVEN hours.  Thank god for free food and free beer.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom

1.  Scrap the current handicapping system and adopt the UK system wholesale.  Please don't say "It'll never happen!" again.  It will, if they do it.

2.  Start setting hard standards and handing out penalties in USGA events.  None of this "You're on the clock, Mr. Nicklaus, nudge-nudge, wink-wink" crap.  More like.  "Jack, you're a hole and a half behind, please add 2 to your score and pick up the pace or you're outta here!"

They have the power, now, to do these simple things.  There are many others they could do, some of which have already been suggested on this thread, but I'kk settle fo those two, for now.



3.  

[THuckaby2]

Yahooo!  Good to hear you haven't given up on #1.

We've battled this too many times before though - it just plain won't work here.  I don't think I ever said "it will never happen" - what I've always maintained is "it won't work."  Oh yes, if the USGA did mandate it, people would follow, they wouldn't have a choice.  BUT... I don't think it's what people want here and it would be a VERY painful process that in the end just plain may not work.  People don't play enough competitive rounds to make it real... and too many people want "official" handicaps for their own betting purposes.  'Tis a noble thought, but not reality - this genie is not going back in the bottle.  

But #2 is indeed reality and can and should be done.  Well said.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

I have seen the light,,, even though it's mostly extinguished. The solution is case specific and as stated before requires the use of psychology and non-verbal communication, don't hurt.

If each course would make it clear (prior to accepting thier fee) to every player who graces thier turf that slow play will not be tolerated. The likelyhood of upwards of 95% compliance will be a reality. As rich's viscosity lesson shows you can't do much if some JERK want's to screw the pooch, but without the emphasis from the get go, the numbers drop significantly.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I have rarely experienced Pace of Play problems at the private courses in my area. Peer pressure usually takes care of the offenders. POP problems are more frequent at outings, where they really don't matter much and at tournaments, where they can and should be controlled. When it comes to public play I think an effective way to deal with them is as follows, keeping in mind that every course is different.

1. Set the pace of play for your course at 20 mins. less than the true pace of play guidelines.

2. Place 5 rangers on par 4s around the course at about 3 hole intervals. If a group is lagging behind, but inside a 4 min. window, at the first checkpoint a ranger will let them know they are behind but let them hit from the tee. This loses no real time as the true POP has been shortened by 20 mins. and it will aid customer relations. The customers will feel they have gotten a "break" from the ranger.  If they are outside the 4 min. window the ranger will escort them ahead to a drop zone from where they will hit. This zone can be determined by the overall length of the hole.

3. Add 4 mins. at every ranger's hole, i.e., at the third ranger site, about hole #9, the ranger can allow a group to be 12 mins. behind if he chooses but still have them at the true course POP. These rangers would also have the option of letting faster players through if warranted. If a following group is very close to the group presently at a rangers hole, he can let the slower group hit but hold them at the tee. He then lets the faster following group hit and only sends the slower group ahead to their balls when the faster group has all hit their approaches. If the slower proup was way behind he can hold them at the tee, let the faster group through and escort the slower group up to the drop area, from where they will hit once the green clears.

4. Make players aware that this policy is in effect, that it will be enforced without prejudice and that it will add to their enjoyment.

5. Give them a POP brochure that includes ways to keep pace.

[Dan Kelly]

No one (unless I missed it) has mentioned one critical factor in the matter of Slow Play:

Slow Walking.

At least half of the folks I see on the golf course walk as if they're in the final stage of terminal arthritis. Whether they're carrying their bags or pulling carts or riding (and walking back and forth between carts and greens), so many people seem to have been afflicted with

a

terrible

terrible

case

of

The

Slows!

I think you're kidding yourself if you think ANY change in the handicap system is going to cut more than a minute or two from the standard round. The problem, in my view, isn't people holing out when the future of the world doesn't depend on it. I hole out 99.44% of my putts -- and am almost never being pushed from behind. Picking up your ball when you're out of the hole, or when you've reached your handicap-allowed maximum, is not going to change much.

Hey, and give me a break! I don't get to play enough golf, and I'm paying too much for what I do get to play -- and now you think it's wrong that I insist on playing a full 18 holes? I'm not buyin' it!

The culprits, as I see them (in no particular order -- and most or all of these have been mentioned, now):

* slow walking;

* unreadiness to play when it's one's turn to play;

* leaving one's equipment in the wrong spot, forcing wasteful back-tracking;

* serial ball-marking on the green (I'd REQUIRE spikeless shoes and continuous putting in medal play);

* excessive searching for lost balls (a problem exacerbated by courses designed or maintained to have excessive areas of excessively long rough, where a player thinks he CAN find his ball);

* what my friend Mr. Shefchik calls "dawdling": just taking TOO LONG to go about one's business, from tee to green. Too many seconds before one's preshot routine begins. Too many practice strokes. Too many waggles. Too long over the ball. (Blame Nicklaus, if you like.)

* Cart riders who don't walk AT ALL. They sit there watching their partner's shot, while their ball sits 25 yards away. Only when their partners have hit and driven them to their balls do they start to get ready to play.

* Cart-path-only setups.

I'm with Shivas. Instead of its constant self-congratulations, the USGA should, for the good of the game, run commercials throughout the US Open and Amateur and Senior Open and Women's Open -- telling me how to play more expeditiously.

[CHrisB]

Dan,
Yep, you missed it (although it was buried parenthetically--see above)!
And I agree with your analysis.  Human behavior is indeed the primary culprit--CB

[Matt_Ward]

I think many of you gentlemen don't understand the issue in simple terms -- who runs the facility -- the players or the management?

Management is RESPONSIBLE for what either happens or doens't happen at that respective course. When you have idiotic rules such as CART PATH ONLY who puts that forward? MANAGEMENT!

When you have tee time intervals down to 8 minutes   you have to ask is MANAGEMENT kidding?

When you have rangers, player assistants, whatever else the PC management calls them, who are 80+ years in age and are more interested in looking for lost balls or they have pre-college boy wonders who'd rather chase the girls by the pool you have to ask who trains or fails to trains these folks -- MANAGEMENT.

The reason why play is tolerated is because MANAGEMENT after taking mega bucks out of the pockets of people to play are not about to take any serious step in getting play moving.

The issue of slow play reminds me of traffic in NYC. When the cops really want to do something about traffic in Manhattan it's amazing what can be done. It doesn't happen often but it can be done. The same holds true for any management staff at any course. More often than not -- fighting slow play is just a talking point that is quickly mumbled and even more conveniently forgotten after you've paid your green fee.

There are examples where MANAGEMENT at any facility will take action, however, the greatest problem with slow play occurs at the upscale daily fees because MANAGEMENT will not seriously head butt those offenders who ruin the day for everyone else.

Once MANAGEMENT takes a proactive response EACH AND EVERYDAY and implements remedies IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER THE OFFENDERS ARE REGULAR PLAYERS OR NOT then you will see the slow poke cattle begin to respond. Not a moment sooner!

[Steve Lang]

Here's my thread tally.. looks like USGA could definitely impact people's sense of responsibility as well as way of play and thus perhaps impact course management decisions.

topical item             # of cites

way of play            23
USGA hdcp, medal mentality            22
Jack &tv            6
course routing            5
enviros            2
cart path only            4
management            19
gambling            3
gloves & clubs            2
personal responsibility            26