Why hasn't the Old Course style been attempted in the United States:

[jeffwarne]

Mike ,on the 17th you hit it over the corner of the biggest house

[David_Elvins]

Cary,

I really think you are underestimating the influence of available land, as pointed out by Tom Doak and others.  Pine Valley has been the no.1 ranked course in the world for many years now.  Why has no-one tried to replicate it in Scotland?  or Ireland? or Australia?

[Forrest Richardson]

Mike N. — I think you are focusig on the 18-hole layout. It is the 9-hole layout that Andy is building that is St. Andrews-like.

A very attractive stone wall lines the north edge of this area. The shaping thus far is flatish, but with great and subtle character. The wall seems to isolate the grounds from the rest of the development and housing. The sense I get from the land plan is that the St. Andrews Nine wil be a village green — an open space that anchors the community.

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,

I really think you are underestimating the influence of available land, as pointed out by Tom Doak and others.  Pine Valley has been the no.1 ranked course in the world for many years now.  Why has no-one tried to replicate it in Scotland?  or Ireland? or Australia?

David:

Very interesting question:

I just pulled out my old Pine Valley book with all the original pictures when it was built vs. the copyright date of 1982.

The Pine Valley of old is remarkably different than it is today just in case you do not have a copy. I'll check Ran's write up after I type this, but I would guess it includes some of the old pictures.

I just checked Ran's write up and his pictures do not include any of the originals. PV has changed dramatically. When it was first built, the trees were not much of a factor. Today, it is very heavily treed, so they must have had a huge tree planting program over the years.


Clearly you need a sand based piece of property with some pretty good topographical land movement, which I think Fazio did a pretty good job with here in Florida at World Woods, his Pine Barren course.

So I think the piece of property necessary to build a PV style course today, does not require a heavily wooded piece of property, probably more the opposite.

I also think that Pine Valley is the model for much of the work done in the desert by Jack Nicklaus, it's just he pretties up the land so much, you don't get that natural look, more of a manicured landscape look.

Pine Valley I think is the model for dozens of courses, what I think is so unique about St. Andrews is the Moonscape, the blind shots, the random fairway pots, the variety of the bunkering, the whole combination.