[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

From Tim McDonald at WorldGolf.com:

Nicklaus wants tougher golf courses

You say golf's too hard? You're not alone. The difficulty of the game is often cited by those who give the game up for good.


There is a loud contingent that is calling on golf course architects to make courses easier. Jack Nicklaus is not among them. Nicklaus says golf courses in the U.S. are too easy.


"Most of the people in the United States want it as wide as they can get it and no trouble and want it easy as it can be," Nicklaus said in a recent interview. "If you go to the rest of the world, you'll fine most of the golf courses are very narrow, very demanding, very penal, and they don't really cater on a daily basis to the average golfer. They cater to the game of golf.


"You've got to learn to adapt your golf game to what the challenges are. In the States, it's a lot the other way. When these kids grow up in the States, most of these courses they grow up on are fairly user-friendly and they don't challenge you."


Nicklaus was talking mainly about why American golfers, mainly the pros, are so lousy at match play. The other reason, of course, is that young golfers in the U.S. are brought up mainly on medal play, and rarely go head-to-head.


Nicklaus is golf's designated curmudgeon, and it's a mantle he wears well. He's right that young American golfers don't play enough match play, but when he starts talking about making American courses more difficult, he comes off as a grouchy, old man.


I've played a ton of European courses, and they are indeed harder, from the big-name courses to the ones in the hinterlands set up for average Europeans. Conversely, I've played with a lot of Europeans on American courses, and I've never heard one complain they were too easy.


I don't think the idea of making courses harder will be all that popular among U.S. golf course owners, or U.S. golfers for that matter. We aren't all Jack Nicklaus. We don't all play in the Ryder Cup. Most of us play the game for fun.

[Glenn Spencer]

Western Am
US Am
North and South
US Publinx
US Junior
Western Junior- until a few years ago
Walker Cup

I continue to not understand how people say that American golfers are brought up on medal play. These are the IMPORTANT championships for an amateur under the age of 23 and for the juniors.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Did Mr. N mention anything about F&F conditions in other places?  This might add to the difficulty. I know that conditions are on his radar re. the rakes at last years Memorial.

[PCCraig]

I think Jack is just getting cranky in his old age.

[Dan_Callahan]

As a general question, why would you design courses that cater to about 1% of the golfing population?

[Bruce Katona]

Dan: To answer your question, you wouldn't, unless your target market is ultra high end or you are limiting the number of members to a finite set amount.  For public play; the more customers you can move thru efficiently, who enjoy the experience and score relatively well;  is a recipe for potential financial success.

[Phil Benedict]

It's stuff like this (and something else on another JN thread) that makes you want to see Tiger obliterate Jack's majors record.

Jack may be the biggest blowhard in the universe!

[cary lichtenstein]

We have seen quite a few drop out of golf clubs that are just too difficult for the average player, I can site the Medalist as the best example, but I can think of 4 others in this area that have lost members who just got fed up.

[Jason Topp]

I wonder if this is taken out of context.  It sounds to me like he is touting such courses for developing top notch talent.  

I doubt he is arguing for tougher courses in general.  Nicklaus frequently has talked about his design philosophy of creating second shot courses, with width off the tee but challenge into the green.  He has been consistent in his criticisms of Augusta due to the narrowing of the course, citing in particular the impact on the every day player.

The more recent Nicklaus courses I have played have been so wide in the fairways that they are boring off the tee.  I believe that if courses have wide fairways, they nonetheless need to be present interesting challenges off the tee.

[wsmorrison]

He may want tougher courses, but does the public?  Where does he get these notions?  I believe, as Max Behr said and Ian Andrew was kind enough to post, that the mission of an architect is to lead.  Tell me, who wants to follow Nicklaus if the notion presented accurately reflects his thoughts?    

[Chris Moore]

Western Am
US Am
North and South
US Publinx
US Junior
Western Junior- until a few years ago
Walker Cup

I continue to not understand how people say that American golfers are brought up on medal play. These are the IMPORTANT championships for an amateur under the age of 23 and for the juniors.

What you are missing here is that probably less than 1% of junior and younger golfers ever have a chance to play in these prestigious events that award their championships via match play.  Also, almost every event you have listed is preceded by some stroke-play qualifying event.  

When I grew up, we played match play in high school, which helped me foster a love for that version of our game.  I doubt there are many places left where high school matches are contested via match play.  All the scores I see these days are aggregate strokes for a team total in relation to par.  Also, college matches are nearly exclusively contested at stroke play.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Dave B has it right.  The course are fine, its the maintenance that is the problem.  Make firm, & fast while dropping the maintenance standards and they should be plenty tough.  

Make em soft, let the ball fly to the hole and stick and they will be easy.  Either that or make em play at my course right now and make em play from the tips.  Not much roll in the Pacific Northwest this winter!

[Darren deMaille]

It is Jack's belief that US courses are easier for the accomplished golfer as compared to overseas.  Is that the general belief of most designers.  I have never been outside the US.  If this is the case do golfers overseas complain as much as american golfers.  My senses tell me no.  The american golfer is spoiled and dumb.

[Ray Tennenbaum]

It is Jack's belief that US courses are easier for the accomplished golfer as compared to overseas.  Is that the general belief of most designers.  I have never been outside the US.  If this is the case do golfers overseas complain as much as american golfers.  My senses tell me no.  The american golfer is spoiled and dumb.

I'm not a designer but I don't think that's an unfair assessment.  Easier equipment makes it easier to hit the ball farther and straighter, and we do so on courses that are increasingly less penal.  If I've noticed a particular trend on courses built over the past ten years it's of looking harder (faroff heathery vistas) and playing easier (eg, concave fairway construction).  It's about following the money.  One very easy way for an architect to please his 12-handicap client(s) is giving him a place he can shoot 78.

[Mark Pearce]

It is Jack's belief that US courses are easier for the accomplished golfer as compared to overseas.  Is that the general belief of most designers.  I have never been outside the US.  If this is the case do golfers overseas complain as much as american golfers.  My senses tell me no.  The american golfer is spoiled and dumb.

I'm not a designer but I don't think that's an unfair assessment.  Easier equipment makes it easier to hit the ball farther and straighter, and we do so on courses that are increasingly less penal.  If I've noticed a particular trend on courses built over the past ten years it's of looking harder (faroff heathery vistas) and playing easier (eg, concave fairway construction).  It's about following the money.  One very easy way for an architect to please his 12-handicap client(s) is giving him a place he can shoot 78.

Not sure that's true in the UK.  The most expensive green fee in Northumberland and the coursemost golfers would consider the "best" course is the Hunting Course at Slaley Hall.  It's a ball-breaker (and IMHO a lousy golf course) but fully occupied by green fee playing golfers.  Many far better (in terms of design and playability) and cheaper courses are far less golfed.  A lot of players like their golf courses hard. Many consider the par 4 9th (steeply uphill, 250 yards with a stream cutting the narrow fairway on driving length) to be the best holeon the course even though even very good golfers are happy with a 5.

[jeffwarne]

I wonder how much golf Jack's played overseas other than tournament golf on tournament venues in tournament conditions.

I think it would be difficult for even the most seasoned traveller to compare the average golf course in the US to the average golf course overseas.
Why?
Because people don't travel (including Jack) overseas and great distances to play average golf courses.
They travel to the ones they perceive as great,or tough, or tournament venues.
They drive right by the average ones so they have no basis for comparison.

Anecdotally, having played over 60 courses in Ireland and 40 in Scotland, I would probably say most of the courses are  easier overseas than the ones I play here in the states.
But again that could be skewed because when I travel I seek out the older hidden gems which don't have the length as some of the newer American abominations I've had to endure.
If I sought out more K-Clubs and Celtic Manor's I might have a different opinion.

Conditions however tend to be a bit worse in Scotland and Ireland(making the course at times play tough) or rather people simply choose to keep playing overseas when the conditions are bad-over here we have bad days, we just don't play.
Jack may well have a point about (Europeans at least) difficult conditions producing great players. But he didn't say that exactly.

The point is generalizations are dangerous because they are based on one's limited anecdotal experiences, not the norm or the average. Jack appears to be generalizing here based on his experiences--it is dangerous for us to do the same.

More than one native Irishman has extolled to me the virtues of those great Florida and Myrtle Beach courses with the water features and motorised buggys.

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, Beside generalizing, Jack could be justifying his designs. Designs that for the most part are penal in nature. IMO, they ignore core principals and his statements try to justify that fact, in hindsight, because American pro golfers are easily satisfied with tenth place finishes.

[Darren deMaille]

Jeff, I don't think Jack has played some of the courses you have played, but if anyone can generalize i think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.  If we compare apples to apples, which area has harder golf courses and what do respective golfers think.  K club members i would think complain far less than Shinnecock members. Also in regards to playing conditions, should you rate a course's difficulty at it's easiest playing condition.    

[Glenn Spencer]

Western Am
US Am
North and South
US Publinx
US Junior
Western Junior- until a few years ago
Walker Cup

I continue to not understand how people say that American golfers are brought up on medal play. These are the IMPORTANT championships for an amateur under the age of 23 and for the juniors.

What you are missing here is that probably less than 1% of junior and younger golfers ever have a chance to play in these prestigious events that award their championships via match play.  Also, almost every event you have listed is preceded by some stroke-play qualifying event.  

When I grew up, we played match play in high school, which helped me foster a love for that version of our game.  I doubt there are many places left where high school matches are contested via match play.  All the scores I see these days are aggregate strokes for a team total in relation to par.  Also, college matches are nearly exclusively contested at stroke play.  

Chris,

Take another look at Nicklaus' quote. The 1% percent that you are referring to are the exact 1% percent that are moving on to the PGA Tour.

[jeffwarne]

Darren,
My post was attempting to point out the difficulty at comparing the courses in the US (on average) to the courses overseas.
It's impossible to compare apples to apples because nobody's played all the courses,and they rarely play anything comparable to their home enviroment.
When people go there they play Waterville, Ballybunion, Lahinch, Turnberry, Troon and Muirfield, often in gale conditions.
Of course that line up is harder than the average country club they play at.
But take an Irishman from an average inland club and put him on Shinnecock, Oakmont, Whistling Straits, TPC Sawgrass, in October in a 25 mph wind and I'm pretty sure he'd come home saying how hard the courses in the US are.

Jack is probably more qualified than most to opine on the average overseas course, I'd still say he's not real qualified.
Nor are many others-I'm certainly not even close.
Tom Doak or James Finnegan may be.
With thousands of courses here and thousands overseas, who really could make a fair comparison.
I'd guess though, unless one was a member of a top course here and connected enough to play only top American courses, that the average US golfer who only goes on 1 -2 lifetime trips overseas would play a better quality course overseas on his once in a life vacation.

Not sure what any of this has to do with your comparison of a K-Club member complaining more than a US member, but with the boom in the Irish economy, I'd guess they have their share of whiny spoiled pricks as well.

[Darren deMaille]

Jeff my point is that you only hear of americans saying the courses are too hard in the U.S. when in fact if we assume jack is correct when they go overseas they enjoy the difficulty and do not complain about it.  Which i think is the opposite with the europeans  I wish more people would just play golf instead about complaining about how hard or easy the courses are.  American golfers are spoiled and dumb.  

[Steve Lang]

 

I want tougher courses too.  I simply believe that you don't get better unless you are challenged to hit different and hard shots within a round.  I'd offer two courses as example:

Oak Tree GC (Dye) in Edmond OK, and Bakersfield CC (WF & WP Bell) in Bakersfield, CA.  Oak Tree was renowned as the hardest course in USA when it opened.. in 1988 PGA it showed some teeth there.. I've played it ~ 20 times, though not since 1999.  I recently got very similar shot challenges at Bakersfield on many many shots, though not as totally at Oak Tree.  Gentle hills, dales and swales, tiered greens, big and small greens, sloped and flat greens, a little of everything thrown at you has to help develop shots.

Now do some math..

Locale   Million Golfers   Top 50 =%   Top 200 = %
Asia   13.6   0.00037%   0.00147%
Australasia   1.7   0.00294%   0.01176%
Europe   6.9   0.00072%   0.00290%
South Africa   0.5   0.01000%   0.04000%
South America   1   0.00500%   0.02000%
Rest of World Sum =   23.7   0.00021%   0.00084%
USA Average =   31.7   0.00016%   0.00063%
Est Total Worldwide =   55.4   0.00009%   0.00036%

Top 50 and Top 200 around the world are extremely small percentage of golfers.. not the "1%" often quoted to note a minority..

[Kalen Braley]

American golfers are spoiled and dumb.  

Well why don't you tell us how you really feel?  I think you might want to ammend that broad sweeping over-generalization. Don't make me turn lose the Huck on you  

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Wait a second---Its the Americans that are spoiled?

Why is that?

I think its the opposite.

I  played golf at Douglaston golf course, New York City muni with an old irish guy, loved to gamble. When we were discussing the condition of Douglaston, holes etc. he really stressed how much better the AVERAGE golf course was over there, including condition.

I watched a special on a show on I think the Fine Living Channel or something. All they were showing was young kids wearing casual clothes, men and women young and old. Pull carts or walking, no golf cars.

This was at County Sligo!

Asked; Describe the the golf clubs in Ireland.

"You can walk into all but one or two of the new places without making any arrangments and youd like to be allowed to go golfing or your welcome to have a cup of tea or a pint. We don't have the gaurd at the gate syndrome." - Pat Ruddy

The next golf course they showed was a golf course "not better known in Ireland".

This course was Narin & Portnoo. "This club focuses on keeping this club affordable for anyone who want to play."

"I can never recall the course being closed."
"You can come down here anytime and rarely on the tee will you have to wait to start. Its like a private club really."
Michael Naughton- Club President Narin Portnoo

 I slept in my car to play golf. Who's spoiled?

[Darren deMaille]

mike,the next time you get a bad lie in the fairway without complaining will be when indursky and i go out to dinner.  we are spoiled. including me.  Jack has a local rule at the bear's club "a ball resting in a sanded divot may be treated as ground under repair"  He doesn't think it is fair to hit a good shot that lands in a divot.  He's spoiled, I am spoiled, we are all spoiled.  We all complain every single one of us about conditions and difficulty or lack there of a course

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