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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Who had this brainstorm?
« on: September 19, 2002, 07:28:48 AM »
I just checked the scores for the American Express Championship and they are ripping it up; hell, David Duval is 3 under at the turn.  Who gets these ideas to schedule a tournament with such a great field on a course like this. There are so many great venues in Ireland which could really make for an interesting championship and they choose this one; I just don't get it.  Next week they'll play the Ryder Cup at what at best is an average golf course where the only test will be how many birdies they can make, except for the guys who are still on the team and shouldn't be, but that is a European PGA decision which is financially driven.  Please excuse me for venting but who makes these decisions for American Express!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2002, 07:31:20 AM »
Yes, Jerry.  You are right about one thing.  You never will get it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2002, 07:37:26 AM »
pink floyd had it right...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2002, 07:38:46 AM »
Jerry K:

I think we should applaud American Express. The best way to preserve the special courses we love is to keep the pros off.

I don't mind an occasional, once in a lifetime deal like Ballybunion in 2000, but let's not do it too often.

Big money and professional golfers just fuel the golf technology arms race. Keeps those guys away from the treasures of the game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2002, 07:40:54 AM »
The sports marketing people At AMEX are really clueless! Short of Harvey Golub, who is no longer in charge (i think), they wouldn't know one course from another. The course decision process for them was driven purely by the Euro PGA and they drive that on capacity and $$$ intake period. That said, many of the great Irish tracks are loathe to have their gems ripped up by hosting a non-tradition pro event. RCD hosts the Senior open and resists all other non-amateur events. IMHO....Tralee or Waterville would be better locations for this AMEX among others.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2002, 07:46:57 AM »
Wait until 2006 when the Ryder Cup goes to the K Club. I think it is comical that the two highest profile tournaments that will be played in Ireland will be on courses designed by Nicklaus and Palmer. Whatever happened to Morris, Colt,
Simpson, or Hackett, even?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2002, 07:51:10 AM »
The beauty of this event was the small field which is being sent out as twosomes so there would be plenty to see and they would be spread out.  It could give the opportunity to host an event to a course which simply doesn't have the facilities necessary for a full field and all of the tents, hotels, etc. Instead we get this; could you imagine what it  would have been like if the players would have said how much they enjoyed a wonderful old course instead of saying how the course reminded them so much of the courses they play in the US.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2002, 08:07:07 AM »
Jerry:

Please tell me you are kidding with your implication that the top players in the world wouldn't shoot similarly low scores on a different course with such tame conditions.

Also, I'm lead to believe from your post that this ISN'T an interesting championship.  Best players bunched pretty tightly, pretty interesting to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2002, 08:13:00 AM »
Jerry K:

The last thing we need is pros telling us how "wonderful" old courses are.

Don't we already know that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Farrell

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2002, 08:20:12 AM »
Hey Valderamma is just like an American course, built by RTJ, so what's the difference? Amex has clout with these places because they can use their travel services to get people there after the event.

Nothing wrong with bunches of birdies. The only rerason they won't do it at the Belfry is due to the pressure.

I'd rather play the traditional courses in Ireland too, but I'm not so sure that many of them are willing to take on a tour event. They prefer their solitude.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2002, 08:38:17 AM »
I would much rather see these guys on a traditional course, especially a seaside links, where they have to think their way around the course and pay a stiff price when they haven't executed the necessary shot.  The opportunity was there for the great golfers to play a great venue and a great challenge.  Instead we have the same guys on top shooting darts at a target.  Tiger finished at 7 under and there are plenty of players well under par, oh yes there is Duval who is now even after making the turn at 3 under.  The British was great not because Tiger lost but because it gave us the chance to see how these players would react and adapt to the conditions and the course; there is simply no suspense to what is happening this week.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2002, 09:53:54 AM »
Jerry:

You act like this is new.  The world's top professional golfers regularly play inferior courses when better ones are nearby.  However, as we've discussed just about every time a Major is held, some of the courses people don't like are suitable tournament venues for a number of reasons.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2002, 11:22:25 AM »
Once again I agree with Tim Weiman.

A course I loved in the North Of Scotland , Nairn West held the Walker Cup in 1999 . Yet all the exposure the course received led to one thing , the green fees doubled overnight.

Keep High Profile competitions off Classic Courses.

(Hey I am Scottish )

Brian Ewen

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2002, 12:29:28 PM »
Brian Ewen:

Be careful. Pretty soon you'll be agreeing with Tommy Naccarato and that's one step away from being branded with the B word.

B = Bias

Speaking of being in agreement, I agree with John Conley. Nothing says the pros have to play out the best courses in the neighborhood. In the old days, pros were treated like second class citizens. How about we make a deal? They can still make loads of money, but anyone who declares himself a professional golfer will be banned for life from any golf course that has ever been ranked in the Top 100 by any major golf publication.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don Corleone

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2002, 01:01:56 PM »
YO TIMMY- I'z sure hope you ain't bashin my cousin Tony? He'z da purist of da pure. He ain't jaded by being some bottomline flunky. Biased against crap, whyz not? Dat Nicklaus course looked like a putt putt for doze guyz. Even the el tigre took a shot at how american it were. Plus da line about dat Strange guy bein on da rag was...it was...PRICELESS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

guest

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2002, 01:18:11 PM »
Here's the scorecard for this thread. Jerry K makes three interesting and thoughtful posts and John Conley rips into him each time, unprovoked. Got to hand it to you Jerry for not stooping to his level. I'm sure he'll jump on me now for posting as a guest.

Anyway, I agree that this tournament has the feel of just another tour event, and the type of course they are playing has a lot to do with that. Just another putting contest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2002, 01:42:02 PM »
  Television presents commodities.  They sell Budweiser, not Caol Ila Scotch.  They aren't concerned with the soul of golf.  They are bean-counting adder-uppers making decisions.

 I wonder... what course would Peter Aliss most enjoy broadcasting from in Ireland? I bet he'd hesitate to mention it.  You ever ask a fisherman where the best fishing is?  It's either a happy lie or a truthful scowl.
  
  Support PBS.  

  Wouldn't it be great if Ken Burns did a documentary on golf  (18 parts, of course, to be consistant with the 9 [innings] of Baseball).  He could finish it with final day LIVE Ryder Cup play or... (?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2002, 02:23:15 PM »
I want to thank you for defending me but I would never take anything said on this site personally.  Most of us are just a bunch of guys who really love golf and have some pretty strong opinions about what it is and where it is going.  Being a lawyer, and a prosecutor at that, I have been called alot of names by alot of people and this is especially true when they are facing a jail sentence.  Ran is smart enough to sit back and watch us make fools of ourselves and hopefully we all recognize that we should never take ourselves or anything we say too seriously unless we have the credentials to do so.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2002, 09:08:44 PM »
Jerry:

You obviously see the spirit of GCA in the same light that I do.  Thoughtful discussion on architectural matters by people who fancy themselves as aficionados.  I was in no way making a personal attack, and am glad it wasn't taken that way.

GUEST:

Yes, I do think it is comical that you cannot identify yourself in the same fashion as the rest of us.  The GCA site is several cuts above other internet discussion groups and offers a wonderful community for many of its participants.  Any close friend of mine knows they could make the same comment you did TO MY FACE and I wouldn't take umbrage.  In this instance, I don't feel out of line at all.  Here's why:

The PGA Tour correctly noted that its members were earning far less than other professional athletes were paid in guaranteed contracts and made intensive efforts to increase purses.  Someone had the brainstorm to act in the best interest of the PGA Tour's members and make them more money.  The players did not complain.

Several initiatives were undertaken.  A big one is to maximize on-site revenue through gate receipts and almost exclusive use of volunteers.  It is very inexpensive to put on a PGA Tour event, and some courses actually PAY a site fee.  (The upcoming Ryder Cup in Wales was reported to be something like $10,000,000 or something.)

Another pursuit was to adopt the proposed World Tour initially mentioned by Greg Norman.  Funny thing how they shot him down and did EXACTLY what he suggested.  This event is one of the WGC events this year.  Smaller field, top players, big big purse.

Fast forward to today.  They are playing Mt. Juliet.  Next week they will play the potato field at Sutton Coldfield now called the Belfry Brabazon Course.  A few weeks ago it was Sahalee and before that it was Hazeltine.  EVERY TIME this happens the same GCA discussion is bantered about.


.....Sand Hills/Pacific Dunes/the National Golf Links/Cruden Bay/Capilano is so much better than fill in the blank.....

and every time it seems to reach the same conclusion.

I don't care that Nairn successfully hosted a Walker Cup or that Prairie Dunes was the site for the U.S. Women's Open.  Those events do not draw the same crowd.  The Golf Channel interviewed the golf writer for a paper in Dublin and he estimated that every Dubliner would drive down on Sunday to watch if Paddy Harrington is in contention.  Gee, that'd be great to handle them at Portrush or some similarly inadequate facility - at least inadequate when it comes to accomodating 50,000 spectators.

The TPC courses are all known to golfers, solely because they host many Tour events.  They were built to provide an adequate challenge to great players and a spacious grounds for 50,000 patrons.  I think they sold 4,000 tickets when the Walker Cup was at Interlachen in 1993.  Apples and oranges.

Follow the PGA Tour and most weeks there is a "better" designed golf course within 10 miles of the tournament site.  Is Bay Hill the best course in Orlando?  Is Disney's Magnolia?   :-/  Does the DC area have anything better to offer than Avenel?  What about Dade County and Doral?  It is rare that the Tour plays outstanding courses, and I've often said the plight of the Hogan/Nike/Buy.com is even worse.  (Sorry Jeff!  I'm not talking about Omaha!!)


Brainstorm[/b] connotes something new that hasn't been tried.  The selection of Mount Juliet is old news, as many venues for professional events aren't notable.  Do you really want to see this thread recycled in four years when the Ryder Cup is played at the K Club?  I don't think much will have changed by then.

I don't mean anything toward Jerry.  As some have noted, his thoughts may have been crystal clear and his time to post very brief.  (He was probably busy sending boys younger than you to the gas chamber.  That one's for you, Shiv.  ;) )  But there is so much more he could have done without changing his thesis.  How about a 7-point action plan to have the next WGC event in Ireland held at Ballybunion or Royal County Down?  Show us how they could still drive as much revenue through the event with a site like that.  Increase ticket prices?  Combine a ticket to the event with a chance to play the course afterward?  (This was done for the Shell's match at Pine Barrens this summer.)  Conduct a pro-am to make up for some lost gate?  I read the posts on GCA to hear other opinions and learn interesting ways to look at the golf world.  I apologize to anyone bothered by my belief that "piling on" an oft-repeated refrain about how tournament venues aren't the best courses is a futile discussion.

The writer for our local paper will soon run a story that attempts to shoot down the notion that another Major championship could not be held in Florida.  He studies every supposed variable and contacts experts on grass, venue, etc...  Makes a long argument for why one COULD be here and then finally hits the last straw... rainfall.  According to his weather tables the U.S. Open should be held in San Diego every June and could hit many other areas of the country, but never Florida.  A well thought out argument.  Jerry's an attorney.  Put his mind to it and he could construct a good argument against using Mt. Juliet.  Do you think he did so far?  "Scores are low and it isn't a course I've heard of on the water."  There, I'm convinced.

Jerry:  I do take posts made by you and anyone else on this site seriously, and I'm not a very serious person.  I think of discussions here as pretty serious business!

Guest:  I hope your pencil has an eraser.  Get out your scorecard and review the tally.  You could construe my first comments as "ripping into (Jerry)".  I don't have a clue how you could say that about the other two replies.  You agree with him about something and you disagree with me - I suspect mainly about the tone and not the content - and score the "match" accordingly.   (And I never try to get into arguments here.  I simply asked twice for clarification and state a difference of opinion.)

The scores shot on a golf course, to me, do not correlate to its worthiness.  Several terrific golf courses yield very low scores under benign conditions when the world's best are playing them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2002, 11:43:17 PM »
John Conley:

As you probably know, it was a long difficult fight to bring the 2000 Irish Open to Ballybunion. Many members of the Committee were strongly opposed. The fact that it was the Irish Open and perceived to be a once in a lifetime experience went a long way toward overcoming resistence.

When it was all over, members generally had a favorably impression. The weather turned out to be beyond what anyone could have ever imagined. A large army of volunteers helped keep spectators off the sandhills resulting in minimal damage to the course. And, everyone will always remember the parade and party Saturday night.

Darren Clarke may have summed it up best Wednesday night: "We're not here to play any of that _______ Tiger Woods golf; we're here to play Irish golf".

As I've said before, the only sad part is that confirmation of the event being held in Ballybunion came too late for the club's Captain to play in the event. (He was off playing in the US Senior Open.)

All that said, I don't see Ballybunion volunteering to host an event like the AMEX. Remember that in the negotiations with Murphy the club orginally didn't want more than 3-4,000 specatators. I think they settled around 8-10,000 and unofficially there might have been as many as 13-14,000 present each day on the weekend.

But, there is no way they could handle or be interested in handling 50,000.

One other noteworthy point: changes made - or even contemplated - to host the pros were minimal: essentially two new tees (#4 & #5). Everyone involved started and ended on the same page: the course exists for members and overseas visitors. Making changes just to accommodate professional golfers was never thought to make a great deal of sense.

My knowledge of RCD isn't like that of Ballybunion, but I don't see 50,000 people being welcomed in Newcatle anytime soon. Perhaps Johnny Browne can share his thoughts.

Jerry K:

If you really want to see the pros play links golf, forget about tournaments and television. Visit Ireland the week before the Open and you are likely to see some of the big boys mixing holiday and practice. Waterville has become a preferred location because Tiger & Co aren't likely to get hassled much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2002, 01:19:17 AM »
Guys
Here is one for the future.

On Wed. Colin Montgomerie gave a press conference where he was full of enthusiasm for the course he is designing at Carton House in County Kildare.

He added " I am thrilled with it. Its a links-style course inland (?) with cavernous bunkers. Its definitely a championship course"

Says it all , doesnt it ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2002, 06:41:24 AM »
    It seems that everyone thinks that they are building a championship venue and if you are talking 7500 yards with a number of forced carries then I guess anything is a championship course but my point is why not have them play on a course which is interesting, challenging and requires them to be innovative in their shotmaking.  Tiger will still probably win or be right at the top but who cares, I think the beauty of the game is watching a player as good as he is having to improvise and think his way around the course, but not simply because they put in some fairway bunkers at 300 yards.  
     Avenel is on a beautiful piece of property literally across the street from Congressional and they did not need to move a great deal of dirt to create a great course, unfortunately a housing development, a water treatment plant and a questionable architect gave us a course which is far from memorable.  The mounding for spectator viewing is not what hurts the course rather it is when looking at what is you immediately think of what could have been.
     I also wonder how many people are actually going to attend the American Express Championship as compared to the Open, and how much damage they would do to the native grasses around a course.  
     Finally, I imagine there is nothing quite like the smell of burning flesh or the look in the eyes of a man as poison runs through his veins, however, I left my job as an assistant prosecutor in New Jersey many years ago and I am now with the US Dept of Justice in DC doing white collar prosecutions, where they go to jail but not many risk the death penalty.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2002, 07:10:20 AM »
Jerry K:

White collar prosecutions?

Is there a special division for crimes against classic courses?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2002, 11:51:21 AM »
Tim, I had never really thought about this as you put it, but you're exactly right -- keep the pros away!

Food for thought:  last week a developer called me about an overseas project.  He said he had a verbal guarantee to host the 2006 American Express Championship there -- even before he has an architect, much less a golf course!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who had this brainstorm?
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2002, 11:57:08 AM »
Tom, I hope that your potential developer is certifiably  dillusional.  The alternative is scary indeed... :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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