Quaker Ridge Golf Club

[Anthony_Nysse]

Guys,
   I don't hear too much about this course on this site. I know it's next to Winged Foot and an old Tillinghaust, but what's the scoop? Anyone have any good experiences? Anyone have any pictures? What's the treehouse's opinion? Thanks.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Phil Benedict]

The Village of Scarsdale, NY has an annual golf outing which rotates between three Tillinghast courses - Fenway, Quaker Ridge and Scarsdale GC (which I have played on a number of occasions).  I have played Fenway and Quaker Ridge once apiece in this event.  I liked them both a lot but Quaker Ridge is about as good as it gets.  It was one of those courses where you after you finished you wonder how great it must be to be able to play a course like this all the time.

[JMEvensky]

I sure agree with Phil Benedict.I played QR several years ago and had a blast.To me,it seems like WFW beats you to death while QR "only" inflicts serious bodily harm. Wasn't there some massive(?) amount of work done last year or two?I thought I remembered they lost their greens to disease maybe?

[Anthony_Nysse]

I believe that Gil Hanse did some work there recently....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[cary lichtenstein]

I always thought QR was a better course than Winged Foot

[Phil Benedict]

I always thought QR was a better course than Winged Foot

Cary,

I have only played Winged Foot once and I had the same reaction after my round at QR - I enjoyed QR more.  But I have to admit that any conclusion after one round at both courses is suspect.

QR is a nightmare for a right-handed slicer - there's out of bounds to the right on numerous holes.  Either where it borders the Hutch or Griffen Road.

[Guy Corcoran, Jr]

I think these comments will answer a few questions. Jack Nicklaus, when asked during the 1974 U.S. Open at Winged Foot if he thought Winged Foot was the greatest course in the world, replied, “That may be, but there is quite a golf course down the street.”  In 1969, Jimmy Demaret stated, “Quaker Ridge is the most underrated Golf Course in the New York Area, because it has never been host course to a major championship.  I’d like to go on record as saying it would be a tough test of golf for any tournament – the U.S. Open and the PGA included.”  Two-time PGA Champion Paul Runyon, who played the 1936 Metropolitan Open at Quaker, said, that Quaker Ridge, “is the greatest golf course in the world.”
 Having the privilege to play both on numerous occasions I can honestly say Quaker Ridge is an equal to Winged Foot. Right out of the gate is a par 5 with a three tiered green tucked into a right corner. The unique feature of back to back par 3's on 9 & 10. The world class par 4 11th hole & my favorite hole on the course the par 5 14th. Please forgive the saying but you truly have to use every club in the bag. An absolute pleasure to play.

[JNC Lyon]

This course was on the Next Fifty List for GCA for the longest time, now it has been dropped, wonder why.  Sounds great from what I've heard.

I understand that the first three holes have OB right out of the gate with no range, probably adding greatly to the course's difficulty.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The club has quite a history. Byron Nelson won the Met Open in 1936 and the Walker Cup was held there in 1997. Quaker Ridge has hosted 3 Met Opens, 2 Met Amateurs, and 2 Met PGA Championships.  The club has always promoted the game of golf, and supported its traditions.

Two-time Masters’ Champion Ben Crenshaw, recently said of Quaker Ridge, “It is so much of a treat to play.  There is such a beautiful mix of holes at Quaker Ridge; it is truly a Tillinghast Gem.  I am sure the membership is very proud of their course.”
 

The above was from the club's website:

www.quakerridgegc.org/about.htm

[Patrick_Mucci]

Quaker Ridge is a wonderful golf course.

But, WF is head and shoulders above it, and has been for decades upon decades due to conditioning issues.

QR has been kept lush and green, so much so, that I recall walking off a green and looking back, only to see my footprints.

They've also let the trees become invasive to the lines of play.  Those trees, as majestic as they are impede air ciruculation and sunlight.  They are no longer an asset.

Quaker Ridge lost many greens over the last few years and now has a new Superintendent.

But, unless they address the conditions and the tree issues, they're going to continue to have maintainance problems, irrespective of who the Superintendent is.  A superintendent can only do what the club allows him to do.  Hopefully, QR will begin to understand the benefits of F&F.  If not, they'll never rise to the top.

I'd send TEPaul to address the membership, but, I'm afraid of the consequences.

To those who say that WF beats you up.
Play the right tees and you'll eliminate that problem.
Play the "Back" or U.S. Open tees and you'll get beat up again.

Neil Regan and I played with Tom Nieporte from the "Old" U.S. Open tees and it was a blast, fun and challenging.

[PThomas]

Quaker Ridge is a wonderful golf course.

But, WF is head and shoulders above it, and has been for decades upon decades due to conditioning issues.

QR has been kept lush and green, so much so, that I recall walking off a green and looking back, only to see my footprints.

They've also let the trees become invasive to the lines of play.  Those trees, as majestic as they are impede air ciruculation and sunlight.  They are no longer an asset.

Quaker Ridge lost many greens over the last few years and now has a new Superintendent.

But, unless they address the conditions and the tree issues, they're going to continue to have maintainance problems, irrespective of who the Superintendent is.  A superintendent can only do what the club allows him to do.  Hopefully, QR will begin to understand the benefits of F&F.  If not, they'll never rise to the top.

I'd send TEPaul to address the membership, but, I'm afraid of the consequences.

To those who say that WF beats you up.
Play the right tees and you'll eliminate that problem.
Play the "Back" or U.S. Open tees and you'll get beat up again.

Neil Regan and I played with Tom Nieporte from the "Old" U.S. Open tees and it was a blast, fun and challenging.

Patrick

I'm not saying your wrong...but it seems hard to believe that some courses - esp ones like QR who I would think have the funds to maintain their course properly - still don't get it that too many trees can be bad, that overwatering/green turf doesn't mean it's healthy, etc

the "golf course MUST be green" mentality drives me INSANE!!!

[Phil Benedict]

Patrick,

Setting aside the maintenance issues, do you consider QR in the same league as Winged Foot from a design standpoint?

[JMEvensky]

Couldn't "maintenance issues" be a reflection of the difference between the memberships at WF and QR?My understanding is that WF has a lot of high-level players;QR not so many.Maybe the members at QR prefer lush and green.

[redanman]

QR may even take a back seat to Fenway, no less both WF courses, but it's personal preference.

I have a number of photos if I get around to posting some.

My take?

One of my favorite holes at QR is the par 5 14th, CLICK to Google set somewhat sidehill with sneaky elevation changes and a HHA variant creating interesting choices.  Also, Tillie always did really good par 3's so that's nothing new. The fours? Some good and interesting ones on the west boundary of the club, but overall not up to WF for sure. Trees need some emergency work, lots of willows and serious shaded areas.

QR has its forbidden fruit mystique helping its overall "infamy".  Jack's comment I think was off-base although QR has more interesting land that WF's 36, its green complexes don't even begin to compare.  Fenway's land is the most interesting by far and once they finish cleaning up the last four holes of all the overgrowth, well, judge for yourself if you can; just my O.

We are talking seriously interesting architecture to be sure, but  QR has been a *relative* disappointment to me.  

A good super with a "free hand" could make a big difference.

[Scott Stearns]

Quaker and Winged Foot (i'll assume West) are both fine examples of Tillinghast's work, but they are very different tests of golf. This is not intended as a knock.

WF is, ahem, a  "Man sized" course.  Long, demanding hybrid or long iron approaches (see #17, #13).  With typical member rough its really hard.  The green surrounds are some of my favorite,but they can be very hard.  See #10 or #18.

I dont think anybody who hasn't got some kind of tour card or qualified for a USGA championship should be playing the Toonamint tees at WF, or would have fun doing so.

Saying that, I personally think WF is penal (a style, not a criticism) from the blues (blacks at WF) or whites.  For example, the par threes yardage doesn't change much.  #3 is 185 from the whites, 200 from the blues.  #13 is 204 from the whites, 209 from the blues.  at #10 the yardage changes by 4 yards.  Yardage at #17 changes by 6 yards.  #!8 is 409 from the whites, 430 from the blues.  Thats a two and 1/2 club difference for me, but even from the whites, i'm hitting 5 or 6 iron to a green on a plateau, which has several sections demanding incredible accuracy.

QR is shorter.  It demands good mid and short iron play, but  precise short iron shots, and offers. to me anyway, a little more variety in terms of the sort of recovery shots demanded.  

QR#11 should be on anyone's list of faves.  its a great hole.  The only knock I hear from people is the OB right on much of the front nine, but i've never really felt that was fair.  I play away from the OB in only one place.  

I like 'em both, but QR is fun course to play, and examination of  the total game, but primarily the short game.  WF is more of a classic Joe Dey/Nicklaus/Hogan examination.  Who can hit long irons high enough and accurately enough, who can place their driver on the correct side of the fairway, etc.

i think Pat is spot on in terms of conditioning.  QR has lost their greens twice that I can remember during the past five years, and i may have forgotten an episode, or more.  Foliage encroachment, resulting in anthracnose, poor root structure---a lot of poor maintenance habits over a long period have come home to roost there.

People talk abt Shinny/National as a great 36 holes in a day experience, but architecturally i think of QR/WF West as a great compare/contrast.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Most of the members I know like to fly underneath the radar as much as they can.
The first hole gives youa feel for the course.  A nice par five that makes you think a birdie start, until you get to the green.  Hit it above the hole and just take 6 and walk to number two.  Number 8 maybe one of the more interesting holes anywher.  It has a big lumpy bump, in my landing area.  Hit it short and your blind to the green.  Try right of left of the bump and be certain you are straight.  Hit into the bump and curtains.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I'm with Dr Vostinak on this issue.

To add a bit to what has been said-

Quaker Ridge has a set of greens that are extensions of the fairways for the most part.  They are not built up like Winged Foot and Fenway and they generally pitch from back to front without the complexities and internal ridges that characterize Winged Foot in particular but Fenway as well.  Anyone who has spent time at Winged Foot with a certain GCA member and putted those greens from all different anges and pin locations knows without doubt the genius of those surfaces.  QR has a good set akin to Alpine but they do not comapre with WF or Fenway.

QR has at least a couple of short holes that give it more variety then WFW.  The 8th is a wonderful par 4 with a series of woolly mammoths buried in a part of the fa airway near the landing area and the ninth a superb par 3 with a triangular shaped green making for some evil pin locations with a short iron. On the other hand, WF East has the best of the short par 3's, its 13th and the best long one as well (#17).  Fenway has more variety then any of them with the evil shorpar 3 4th, long 6th, two drivable par 4's and numerous really long par 4's.

Mike Cirba has not chimed in about the bunkers at QR (yet) but its was pretty obvious which ones were untouched and which were redone by Rees for the 97 Walker Cup.  They are pretty bad for the most part.  Certainly the hand of Gil Hanse and crew could remedy that problem.  QR also has lost some original holes as documented by Daniel Wexler in one of his two books.

So, the bottom line from my point of view is that we have four totally world class Tillinghast courses within 10 minutes of my home that are each unique and a joy to play. I don't think there is another place on the globe to see so much of his great work in such a small area.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Setting aside the maintenance issues, do you consider QR in the same league as Winged Foot from a design standpoint?

Phil,

Yes, I think QR in proper condition belongs in that rarified air.

Paul Thomas,

It's a matter of cultures.
Remember WF has a long history of hosting Major Events.
US Opens, US Senior Opens, US Amateurs, MGA Opens, MGA Amateurs and an annual event, the Anderson that attracts a top amateur field.  Thus, the course must accomodate those fields.

QR hosts an annual event that attracts superior amateurs, but, the mentality has been more toward the lush and green aspect rather than the F&F aspect.

And, it's been that way for at least one half of a century.
When things are done over such a long period of time it becomes an imbred or inherent feature of the golf course, and the culture of lush and green perpetuates it.

Hopefully, QR will gravitate toward the paths taken by Fenway and WF.

Tommy Williamson,

I don't know that I'd call a golf club that hosted the 1997 Walker Cup and a important annual amateur event, the Hochster, as one that likes to fly under the radar.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Quaker is an amazingly well-designed, balanced golf course. It's balanced in that, when the greens are at appropriate speed, all aspects of the game are tested. I have been a member for 15 years or so, and I think its the fairest, really difficult driving course I have played, though the equipment is starting to have an impact there.

Very interesting that three outstanding greens were not built by Tillinghast (2, 12, 13) (picked that nugget up from Dan Wexler along the way).

What has been so frustrating for the membership over the past decade is that we have really only seen glimpses of the greatness of our course, when the stars lined up and conditioning was good...usually in the fall.

We hired a new superintendent recently, from Canoe Brook, in NJ. We all hope that he can restore a fantastic course to the condition it deserves.

Patrick, with respect to your comment on lushness, that really ended when Tony Savone left after the Walker Cup.  The problem has been that the super who followed Mr. Savone wasn't able to maintain firm/fast surfaces, particularly the greens, despite his best effort.

[Scott Stearns]

Jeff, can you fill us in on the issues with the greens?  everyone on the Met has been wondering about the ba luck you had for a few years.  What is the status now.

[Phil Benedict]

What has been so frustrating for the membership over the past decade is that we have really only seen glimpses of the greatness of our course, when the stars lined up and conditioning was good...usually in the fall.

The one time I played Quaker was in the fall and it was glorious.  I think autumn is the best time for lots of Northeastern golf courses.  The cooler weather allows for  aggressive maintenance - they water less and cut the grass lower.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

This is a great topic.This small area is far richer in great golf courses than most think.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jeff Lewis,

While you're certainly closer to the situation than I am, the failure to address the tree issue made it difficult to address the turf issue.

Just yesterday I happened to be speaking to a member of the green committee about the issue.

He had a slightly different perspective than yours.

But, it appears that QR is MORE aware of the issues that impede good to great turf issues and will address them.

Still, at any member oriented club, changing the culture to F&F after many years of lush and green is a difficult task.

It's not so hard when one group comes in and transitions the golf course, the real difficulty is in sustaining the conditions.

Good luck

[Jason Blasberg]

Someone asked me recently how I would rank Engineers, Quaker Ridge and Fenway, respectively.

Obviously I'm biased but for me it was immediately:

1)Engineers
2)Fenway
3) Quaker Ridge

I found Quaker to be repetive out of the gate with OB on the right for the first 5 holes and I found it tree cluttered in many places.  

It wasn't my cup of tea and would much prefer playing Fenway.