[Tommy Williamsen]

I hesitate to call it an "average" piece of ground but Rye Golf Club may be the best use of land that is not extraordinary, I have seen.  Unlike many links courses built on humpy bumpy dunesland, Rye has really only one dune that runs the lenght of the course.  The way the holes wind their way around it is brilliant.  I can't think of making one change.

[JESII]

Haven't been to Rye, Tommy, but the two courses at Winged Foot seem to get votes for this type of list and I can't argue with that. Not much going on there...

[Jay Flemma]

How about the Rawls Course?  That was a cotton field...

Bulls Bay?  That was a tomato field...flat as a slashed tire.

[Craig Disher]

WRT Rye I tend to agree with Tom. The original land for the course (after the course that criss-crossed the road was abandoned) was limited by the road on one side and the railway on the other. The only natural feature left were the dunes (one on the front, two on the back) that roughly parallel the road and rr. The routing was pretty much dictated by those features unless the course was to be a series of slogs up and down the dune line (a bunch of holes like the 6th). Somewhere around here I have a picture of the old routing and from what I remember many of the holes were like that. I know the tee for the 18th was below the dune near the 17th green.

It's not a great piece of ground for a golf course but the so-so holes are few and the good ones are really good.

[David_Tepper]

Muirfield!!!

[Tom_Doak]

I love Rye.  The interesting thing about it to me is that it's probably the best example of "golf course design evolution" that I know of ... the best holes are from different iterations of the design as it moved a bit further away from the road over time.

But I think a better answer to the topic question is Royal Worlington & Newmarket.  It is an astounding course and yet most  golfers could drive right past it (the road goes across the ninth fairway and down alongside the first two holes), and barely let out a yawn.  And it's a way better course than The Rawls.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I don't think that any course sitting on a sandy site can be the answer this question.  The sandy soil provides many inherent advantages in itself.  

My vote would be for Winged Foot West.  The raw land is pretty featureless and undistinctive, yet the finished product is world class.

[Trey Kemp]

For me its got to be Chicago Golf Club.  There is nothing special with the land, but the result is a great place for golf.

[Jonathan Cummings]

How about Talking Stick North.  There is no more than 1% change in natural elevation over the property.  Basically it's dead flat.

JC

[Dan Herrmann]

Jonathan,
At the Hidden Creek outing a little while ago, Bill Coore described Talking Stick North as perfectly flat - that it was essentially a horrible starting point for a golf course.

I think that Mr. Coore includes Talking Stick North among his favorite works because they started with essentially nothing.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom, I suspect Royal North Devon might be a candidate.  I agree with Tom Doak about Royal Worlington, and one of the things which makes it so special is the soil beneath the surface - brilliantly draining, so that even in a wet winter this course plays hard and fast.  

Southerness doesn't appear to have much going for it as you drive alongside the course for the first time.  I doubt if it changes level by more than 5 feet, yet it's a marvellous course.  

Royal Antwerp is as flat as apancake, the only changes of level being artificial moundwork, but it's a marvellous course.  I should be interested in the opinion of others on its merits.  Is it too treebound, or would it be boring without them?

Royal Lytham isn't memorable from its topography, but it's a great course.

[Phil McDade]

I'd suggest Lawsonia Links. It's a good -- not great -- piece of land, made a great golf course by Langford's ingenious routing and his use of visually arresting and strategically keen bunkers and greens. The course is essentially divided into its two nines by two separate parcels of the land -- no front nine hole comes remotely near any back nine hole. The land has some movement, dramatic in parts (notably on the par 5 5th and par 4 6th on the front, and particularly on the par 5 11th and par 5 13th on the back nine), but otherwise its movement is subtle and gradual. Langford used the lay of the land, however, to design holes that gradually reveal themselves in interesting ways, notably on the par 4 8th, the par 5 9th, and the par 4 15th and 16th.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I really need to play Royal Worlington.
Mark, Royal North Devon is indeed on relatively average land.  In fact, 1, 2, 17, & 18 are on pretty marshy land.  The Old Course itself is also on what we may call less than stellar  land when compared with the Dunes of Cruden Bay etc.  

[Steve Lapper]

Easy additions to those already mentioned on this thread would be the likes of:

Kingston Heath
Riviera
Pinehurst #2
Hidden Creek
Hollywood


With a bent to alteration:

Bayonne
Shadow Creek

[Mark Chaplin]

Average land; All St Andrews courses, Muirfield, RND & Metropolitan, Melbourne  put to very good use.

I'd have to agree with some that Rye is a good piece of land used very well. The old railway line was mentioned. Back in the early days of Rye special golfers trains ran from the town to the golf club linking up with London trains so members could stay and play over a weekend. The golf club train had 2 carriages, one 1st class for the golfers the other 3rd class for the caddies. Obviously there was no need for a second class carriage it being unsuitable for a gentleman golfer and too expensive for the caddies!!

[Phil McDade]

I really have to wonder about those who suggest TOC at St. Andrews in an average piece of land for a great golf course. It's a great piece of land, one of the best I've ever seen, because its bumps and hollows and sight lines make for great uncertainty and constant, thought-provoking shots required of golfers. Just the unlevel lies and stances that are so much of TOC make it a great place for golf. It's not dramatic like the dunes of Cruden Bay or some of the famed Irish courses, but I wouldn't confuse the lack of visual drama for its merit as golfing land.

[Dan Boerger]

First off Winged Foot is a great call. It's a relatively flat layout, but there's so much going on with that course due to design brilliance that you completely forget it's pretty flat and on a pedestrian track of land.

Also, and I may be a lone wolf here, but I think Pine Valley is on an average pice of ground. I say that because as I drove up there for the first time I could not conceive of how a world class course could be at this locale. I had really high expectations for this supposed #1 ... and those expectations were exceeded. I have since played Pine Hill (which is nearby and which I have no major complaints about), but, in comparison, what was done at Pine Valley still blows me away.

[George Pazin]

Sorry, but I can't accept any UK links as having average ground.

[Steve Lapper]

NO WAY anyone familiar with the geography & geology of the Pine Barrens area of NJ could label the ground beneath PVGC "average."

First of all, the areas of PVGC (and Pine Hill) are about the ONLY pieces of undulating ground anywhere within a 20-30mile radius. It is simply just flat nearly everywhere else within that radius. The rises & falls of holes 2-5, 8,13-18 and the vertical of the waste area on #6 leave no doubt that while Crump, Colt, et.al.  were indeed geniuses, the ground was way above average. The firm and sandy nature of the soil certainly isn't average either.

My earlier choice of Kingston Heath reflects on the genius of routing (Mac) and building on FLAT sandy turf, yet if you travel 1.5 miles away, rolling and very moving ground is found beneath one of the world's greatest layouts: Royal Melbourne. This presents a very good analogy of Hidden Creek to PVGC...not much different (just farther apart, yet within the same geography).

Don & Dan....

   If either of you had the opportunity to play/see the par 3 course there, it would be even more evident that this was no "average" ground.

[Dan Boerger]

Steve - I have played the par 3 course and was as overwhelmed with that as I was with the "regular" course. Also, I defer to your knowledge of the area around PV and PH. Perhaps those are really different areas of land. - Dan

[archie_struthers]

 

Steve,

Being very familiar with Hidden Creek and Pinehurst #2, do you really think they are bad pieces of ground for golf?

I think a lot of architects  would gladly work on either site.
Nice medium (sand base) some nice elevation changes and decent weather.

Given that Crenshaw and Coore are pretty particular, why would they take on the HIdden Creek job if this was the case?

[Steve Lapper]

Gentlemen all,

 Driving in past the gates, all one really can view from the car is the valley of the 18th, some part of the apron-fairway of 5th, and the 4th green. It would require opening the sun-roof and mounting a ladder to catch much else, yet once you play the first four holes (before returning to the clubhouse, it isn't hard to see how the land moves. Of course, it only gets better from there!

Archie,

Neither Hidden Creek nor Pinehurst#2 are "bad pieces of ground" for golf. They are both not far from above average-to average...mostly flat with good soils(medium). Of course, most architects would gladly take nearly any sandy soil site (just look at other "questionable" sites that  yielded good layouts in Little Egg Harbor Twp) As for Roger, Bill & Ben, I think they all were excited at the prospect of creating a "heathland-style" course not too far from PVGC. Personally, I think it's a magnificent success, but I might be biased. There isn't much elevation there though, unless you think the 15-20 feet of vertical at #11 is big

[wsmorrison]

The soil at Pine Valley was, at the start, terrible for maintaining turf.  It was far below average.

Some innovative practices had to be employed in the late teens to enable the soil to have enough organics and binders to hold the ground together and achieve a growing medium for turf.  Like NGLA a little earlier, Crump and Macdonald made the mistake of trying to grow and maintain turf on nearly straight sand.  At both courses there were spectacular failures.  In the case of Pine Valley, Hugh Wilson and William Flynn (with Flynn on site for several days a week for several months) with the assistance of Piper and Oakley at the US Dept of Agriculture came up with a large scale solution.

[mike_malone]

 Just this past Monday I drove east some 20 miles south of PVGC. The land there is unusually undulating compared to the land west of it to the Delaware River and east of it to the ocean. I can imagine why the site of PVGC was chosen. It was the most interesting land in South Jersey that also was near the train.

 

[tlavin]

TPC Sawgrass comes to mind.  By all accounts, it wasn't even an average piece of ground; it was a swampy disaster.

I'd also second the nomination of Chicago Golf Club.  The terrain is vanilla and the golf course is neapolitan!

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