Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)

[Ian Andrew]

In an earlier post when this was still about the 5th hole I said:

"The new hole is in a spectacular setting, but somehow doesn't seem to fit into the rest of the course as well as it should. Whether it's the narrow nature of the green or the bunkering technique, it feels like a transplant."

I just wanted to say after a little hindsight and after reading Jim Lipe's explaination, I've reconcidered what I said. I think I was wrong with this observation which was based on the long narrow green, when I looked at the 12th hole and the bunkering at that time, I can easily see the hole fits the style fine. My bad.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ian:

That's a very mature and well-reasoned post; something sorely lacking from this thread.

 

Oh would that some would have the same maturity... although I'd take hindsight and actually reading the explanations of others....

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

OK, it's obvious now that you just won't accept the very, very obvious similarities of these two golf holes.  I've listed them countless times, you keep arguing with me - even though I've played both of them and you haven't played DV.

Tom, you're driven by an agenda.

You want to declare the holes "similar" then ask why one is classified as great and the other as mediocre, with your explanation being, "the surroundings", not the architectural and playing qualities of the hole.

The problem is, the holes aren't similar, in topography or configuration, hence you argument fails on its underlying premise.[/color]

But let's just remember this exercise - the time that Patrick "you can't really tell from photos" Mucci relied on photos over the experience of someone who has played a particular golf hole.  

I'm not addressing the experience of playing the hole.
I'm comparing the physical properties of both holes with the assistance of side by side aerial photos.   Surely, even you can see the differences in topography and configuration.[/color]


I tell you no one ever chips a ball 70- yards straight at the hole, that damn near all who can't make the full carry do play left, over the edge of the water, about 150-160 off the tee,


You don't know that.
You've only been there a few more times than I have.
You're just making that factless statement to further your argument.[/color]

you continue to tell me you know better about the safe shot because you see it in the photos.  

The photos don't lie.
A "safe" shot is that, a safe shot, not one that risks encountering the feature you're trying to avoid.
You keep trying to force a shot that's not prudent[/color]

I tell you the tee at CPC is raised a bit more, you demand exact measurements because you also can't see that in the photos.

A "bit" connotes a slight differential and you know that the elevation at CPC is SUBSTANTIAL.  You're being disenenuous to further your argument.[/color]

 I tell you how the winds are and you flatly say "I don't believe it."

I have good reason not to believe it.
One site is on a bluff on a point on the Pacific Ocean, the other is far inland, in Pittsburgh, California.
I'd be an idiot not to question the equality of the wind conditions.[/color]

But if any other Bay Area regulars are reading this, can you clue Patrick in on the winds we get out there?  That it's not just right next to the ocean where strong winds can occur?  I doubt we have any regular players of Delta View, but if so, can you clue him in as to the other details he continues to argue about?

It's not about the winds at Delta, it's about how the winds at Delta compare to the winds at CPC, day in and day out.[/color]

On second thought, don't bother.  He won'e believe any of you either, relying on his far superior analysis made from 3000 miles away relying on two-dimensional aerial photos.  

I've played CPC more than a few times, and, I'm capable of comparing the physical properties of both holes in a side by side aerial photo.[/color]

Patrick, you are amazing.  And you have the gall to call ME "desparate."

Like "Housewives"   [/color]

You say:

"Over the fence at Delta is OB, not a lost ball, and that's another difference.  Stroke and distance versus two club lengths."

Please tell me you understand the rules of golf....that OB abd lost ball are the same thing... and that you understand that they play the ocean as "part of the course" at CPC.

A ball lost in a hazard is treated differently than a ball that's OB, and, that's in the rules of golf.[/color]

Bottom line is this:  anyone who has played these two golf holes - plus all others with no axe to grind, nothing to prove, no other agenda - can see that the playing of these two holes is has a lot of similarities and a few rather trivial differences.  

You keep declaring this, but, I've yet to hear any support from credible sources.[/color]

What the world also can see as the big differences is HOW THEY LOOK.  And of course, that's what makes the CPC hole great and the DV one just "difficult" and never cited as great by anyone.

AHHH, we finally get to your agenda, your predetermined conclusion, which is based on what you call, a remarkable similarity between the holes.  The only problem is that the holes aren't similar, in terrain or configuration.[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Another long sigh.

Patrick, I guess you win.  This has gone on way too long as it is.  I won't argue any further.  I will however point out inaccuracies in your arguments here.

1.  I am not being disingenuous about anything.  I honestly don't know the exact number of feet each tee and each green is raised.  I have said several times the distance is greater at CPC.  I honestly don't think it's enough greater to make this a significant difference in any aspect of any of this.

2. Of course I don't know how everyone who's ever played DV tackled the tee shot.  I just do know I have a lot more experience than you at it, as my tourney group played there once, a group of 28 or so with handicaps ranging all over the board, and I can tell you not a single one chipped the ball straight ahead on that golf hole.  Those who felt they could make the carry tried, those who didn't went left into the largest layup area I described - which did require a small carry over water.  But continue to believe what you will  - I know nothing I say can ever change that.

3.  Question the winds all you want.  An honorable man might take the word of someone who lives in the area.  I doubt I'd question you about winds where you live... but then again honor is more important to me than "winning" arguments.

4. You miss the point re the rules issue.  They play the ocean as part of the course at CPC.  So the penalties for missing too far left are the same at both courses.  You also are completely wrong about the rules if you continue to maintain that OB and Lost Ball give two different penaltis, but I remain honorable enough to give you the benefit of the doubt that your take there was poorly worded rather than just plain stupid.  Some of that in return might be nice, but again I never expect it.  

5.  Kalen agrees with me on every part of this - there's a source.  I doubt anyone else has bothered to read any of this besides the three of us... If so, I have zero doubt that those who have played both courses would agree with every word I have written.  But since you're so into sources, I might point out that not a single person has come in here supporting you on this.  So it's one to zero.  

As for the rest, if I have an agenda, it's equal to yours.  You want to maintain the odd notion that beauty and looks have no bearing on anything, I want to convince you of the fallacy of this.

The two holes play remarkably similar.  It's true, Patrick.  Argue all you want, but you have no way of knowing this having never played one of them.

As for reliance on photos, my my but you are inconsistent.

Oh well.  Quixote I remain.  I'm not sure what to call you... is there one word for completely stubborn, inconsistent, willing to do anything rather than concede a point in an argument?

I just though of it....

MUCCI.

 

[JESII]

Shame on me for wading in here, but as you guys must know, by now I love a good fight amongst morons...


Pat,

For you as a very good player, how would the playability of the two holes be different?

[Tom Huckaby]

Sully:

You are evil.

And you also stole a question I was going to ask if I decided to press this further.

His answer ought to be good... it's gonna require some fine creativity to highlight differences.....

Remember too he's never played the DV hole.  But of course he can't fall back on that at this point.  

Can he?

 

[Brad Tufts]

Anyone have any pics of the old hole from ground level?  I vaguely remember it from the old links golf computer game (Links only made/sold pebble for a year or two).  I remember cartpaths and overhanging trees.....

[Kevin_Reilly]

I never thought I'd see so much written about lowly Delta View on GCA, much less in comparison to CPC.  

Next on the agenda, a comparison of Boundary Oak to LACC North.  

[Tom Huckaby]

I never thought I'd see so much written about lowly Delta View on GCA, much less in comparison to CPC.  

Next on the agenda, a comparison of Boundary Oak to LACC North.  

You and me both, brother.  Of course the absurdity of it was rather part of the point Kalen and I have labored to make...

But since you're here, can you enlighten Mr. Mucci as to the winds that can blow out near the Delta?  That CPC does not have the market cornered on wind?

Good lord if I took him to Rio Vista he might faint.  

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Shame on me for wading in here, but as you guys must know, by now I love a good fight amongst morons...

Hey now,

I resemble that remark....errr resent that remark!!  

I'm glad to see someone else diving in and right to the main point of my original position, which is how they are played, which happens to be very similar.

And Patrick, this is reason to go left on DV 18, because the chip to the green is now just a short one, instead of a much longer one by laying up short of the pond.

Another benefit of laying up left is that on your 2nd shot in, you only have to carry a small corner of the pond instead of the whole thing by laying up short and straight.  The same is also true on CPC 16 if one chooses to lay up to the left, as only a small portion of the water much be carried.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Yes, I can confirm the existence of WIND[/color][/b] in the namesake Delta area (name derived from the nearby body of water that is in fact smaller than the Pacific Ocean).  However, I make no claims regarding the ability of said WIND[/color][/b] to puff out a windshirt like the WIND[/color][/b] at CPC.

[Kalen Braley]

Say what you will about DV, but I think its a great little course with a little price to match it.  And yes we are comparing only one hole.

But the reality is, the front 9 which has been attributed to Dr.MacK has some brillant holes on it.  #3, 6, 7, and 8 are all tough but fun holes with a lot of strategy off the tee.

As to the green on 6,  I can't think of any other course I've played with such a compact undulating green.  I've had birdie putts where I'm 15 feet away and praying to make par.

[Kalen Braley]

Yes, I can confirm the existence of WIND[/color][/b] in the namesake Delta area (name derived from the nearby body of water that is in fact smaller than the Pacific Ocean).  However, I make no claims regarding the ability of said WIND[/color][/b] to puff out a windshirt like the WIND[/color][/b] at CPC.

On at least half of the occasions I've played there, the wind was blowing pretty hard.  And by this I mean at least a 2 club wind.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kevin - thanks.  That wind that day at CPC tended to puff out trousers also, which is what many psychos have noticed even more than the windshirt.  Of course I deny all of it.    And just to give some added levity, well... here once again is the picture in question.  15 tee, very windy day.



Kalen - thanks also.  Just do be prepared for Mucci to accept none of this.  Despite all my efforts he doesn't buy that they play similar - his absurd arguments about trivial differences are all toward that end.  But the baton is yours if you want it.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Another long sigh.

1.  I am not being disingenuous about anything.  I honestly don't know the exact number of feet each tee and each green is raised.  I have said several times the distance is greater at CPC.  I honestly don't think it's enough greater to make this a significant difference in any aspect of any of this.
Tom, # 16 sits up on a high bluff overlooking the Ocean.

2. Of course I don't know how everyone who's ever played DV tackled the tee shot.  I just do know I have a lot more experience than you at it, as my tourney group played there once, a group of 28 or so with handicaps ranging all over the board, and I can tell you not a single one chipped the ball straight ahead on that golf hole.  Those who felt they could make the carry tried, those who didn't went left into the largest layup area I described - which did require a small carry over water.  But continue to believe what you will  - I know nothing I say can ever change that.

Then you and that group need to enlist in my basic course management 101 class.

3.  Question the winds all you want.  An honorable man might take the word of someone who lives in the area.  I doubt I'd question you about winds where you live... but then again honor is more important to me than "winning" arguments.

I live inland, not on the coast, and as a matter of basic principle, the winds on the coast are more dramatic due to the differential in the process of the sun warming the land and sea versus just the land.

4. You miss the point re the rules issue.  They play the ocean as part of the course at CPC.  So the penalties for missing too far left are the same at both courses.  You also are completely wrong about the rules if you continue to maintain that OB and Lost Ball give two different penaltis, but I remain honorable enough to give you the benefit of the doubt that your take there was poorly worded rather than just plain stupid.  Some of that in return might be nice, but again I never expect it.  

So, you're saying that the Ocean is casual water ?

Balls OB come under 27-1, balls lost in a hazard come under 26-1, two seperate rules that provide for different treatment depending upon the circumstances.  There's a big difference between stroke and distance and a stroke without distance.

5.  Kalen agrees with me on every part of this - there's a source.  I doubt anyone else has bothered to read any of this besides the three of us... If so, I have zero doubt that those who have played both courses would agree with every word I have written.  But since you're so into sources, I might point out that not a single person has come in here supporting you on this.  So it's one to zero.  

I'm not so sure that Kalen agrees with every point you made.
Even if he did, two wrongs don't make a right.

As for the rest, if I have an agenda, it's equal to yours.  You want to maintain the odd notion that beauty and looks have no bearing on anything, I want to convince you of the fallacy of this.

I never said that.
That's your distorted and erroneous view of my position

The two holes play remarkably similar.  It's true, Patrick.  Argue all you want, but you have no way of knowing this having never played one of them.

One look at the physical properties of both holes, their configuration and the juxtaposition of the features tells me that the don't play remarkably similar.

One has a forced carry even if you play safe, the other doesn't, that's a huge difference in and of itself.

As for reliance on photos, my my but you are inconsistent.

Oh well.  Quixote I remain.  I'm not sure what to call you... is there one word for completely stubborn, inconsistent, willing to do anything rather than concede a point in an argument?


When you make a valid point supported by the facts and logic, I'll be willing to listen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shame on me for wading in here, but as you guys must know, by now I love a good fight amongst morons...

We resemble that remark


Pat,

For you as a very good player, how would the playability of the two holes be different?

JES II,

You can't look at the play of a hole solely in the context of one type of golfer.  You have to look at the hole, architecturally, and from the perspective of playability, from the broad spectrum of golfers who will play it, not just from the perspective of one one hundredth of one percent of the golfers who play the hole..

To do otherwise is narrow minded.

[Patrick_Mucci]

And Patrick, this is reason to go left on DV 18, because the chip to the green is now just a short one, instead of a much longer one by laying up short of the pond.

Perhaps, but then you bring the water into play.
That's not a very smart play and it only gains a limited amount of yardage.

Another benefit of laying up left is that on your 2nd shot in, you only have to carry a small corner of the pond instead of the whole thing by laying up short and straight.  

Perhaps, but now you have the bunker to contend with from that angle.

The same is also true on CPC 16 if one chooses to lay up to the left, as only a small portion of the water much be carried.


That's not true.
You have to carry the chasm left, which just happens to be the Pacific Ocean.  No heroic carry is necessary for golfers who go far left at Delta.

[JESII]

Pat,

I can do any thing I like. So I repeat...

Pat,

For you as a very good player, how would the playability of the two holes be different?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

I accept that the wind blows harder at CPC.
That it also tends to be cooler at CPC and that the combination makes playing # 16 at CPC more difficult.



Why aren't you swinging a club ?
I know...... it's too windy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I can do any thing I like. So I repeat...

Pat,

For you as a very good player, how would the playability of the two holes be different?

I couldn't answer that without knowing the conditions of play at both courses on the day I played them.

[JESII]

Pat,

Let's assume no wind...


I played a couple rounds right down the road from CPC at Pebble and never dealt with more than a breeze, so don't tell me it always blows at CPC...

[Tom Huckaby]

From Patrick Mucci:

One look at the physical properties of both holes, their configuration and the juxtaposition of the features tells me that the don't play remarkably similar.

And he continues to argue this having never played one of the holes in question, directly disagreeing about the play of one hole with two people who have played it.

I'd say that's amazing, but then I know who we're dealing with.  It's now become rather sad and pathetic.

Patrick:

Did you read the posts after mine?  The further confirming evidence from locals?

Sigh.... ok, let's go over this again.  I refuse to allow your distortions and mischaracterizations.

1.  I know very well where 16CPC sits; I have played the hole five times.  I continue to maintain my position.  You refute this based on what?  You have zero knowledge of the DV hole.  I do.  I suppose you just choose to disbelieve me, again.

2. If all golfers were as smart as you are playing the game, more would play it as well as you.  But I'd also point you to Kalen's posts as to why the DV hole is played as it is in terms of a layup.

3. Re the wind, you might have consulted a map, and seen that DV is pretty close to other bodies of water.  But that being said, wind doesn't stick to bodies of water here... You might want to drive along I-580 sometime out here and notice the multitudes of giant windmills.  In any case, I gather you finally grant that perhaps I was telling the truth and nothing more re this.  Gee, thanks.  It only took two other corraborators.

4.  The rules situation at CPC is a weird one, discussed in here before.  I don't think you could call the ocean casual water - look up the definition of that and you'll see why.  Bt they do make it quite clear in signs and I believe on the scorecard that the ocean is to be treated as part of the course.  So no need to cite rules to me, thank you very much.  I know the rules; although from your prior posts I gave you a HUGE benefit of the doubt that you did so.  CPC is just an odd situation in how they do this, but the bottom line remains that it is what it is, and the two holes thus play exactly the same in terms of shots missed to the left.  It's odd to me that someone who's played CPC would NOT know this... it's a very unique thing and very "publicized"... very hard to miss... You HAVE played CPC, right?

There we have it.  We also have Kalen's posts confirming that the play is similar in the two golf holes.  We have Kalen and Kevin Reilly confirming the wind.  I gather that's not enough?

As for your contention that the two layups have a "huge" difference is laughable.  Yes, one does have to cross water no matter what at CPC; whereas at DV, one does have available a 70 yard bunt that no one ever uses and leaves 130 more yards over water.  If that's a huge difference in your world than God help you.  The fact remains that ON BOTH HOLES, for the good player, it's damn near always just a straight shot at the green; the lesser player picks his poison to the left, deciding how far he wants to hit the ball and how close he wants to get to the green.  I granted long ago it's a difference that no matter what one does at CPC the shot must cross water; I just don't see that as significant given one crosses water damn near all the time at DV anyway.  But yes, if that is a significant difference to you, you are welcome to it.

In any case, I've grown weary of arguing these details and correcting you time after time after time.  It's eminently clear you'll believe only what you want to believe no matter what anyone says, basing it on photos... something you have chided others for countless times in the past.

You remain quite the piece of work.

So screw it.  

You tell me then, if I have distorted your previous overall position.   Here's how I understand that: you grudgingly accept that beauty factors into the golf equation, but only on a very tangential level, falling way way way after matters directly effecting "play" of a golf hole - and one way or the other, it stops at the edge of the golf course - that is, nothing beyond the edge of the course has any bearing whatsoever on anything.

Is that incorrect?

I believe this exercise with these two golf holes reveals a major weakness in your position.  But I'd never expect you to accept it.

I might expect some benefit of the doubt and acceptance from you that perhaps I know our area better than you do... but I guess I'm learning to not even expect that.

TH

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I accept that the wind blows harder at CPC.
That it also tends to be cooler at CPC and that the combination makes playing # 16 at CPC more difficult.



Why aren't you swinging a club ?
I know...... it's too windy.

It's called waiting one's turn.  And whoever complained about wind?  Claiming it exists equals complaining about it?

That was one of your weaker efforts.  I expect more from you.  Try again.

[Kalen Braley]

And Patrick, this is reason to go left on DV 18, because the chip to the green is now just a short one, instead of a much longer one by laying up short of the pond.

Perhaps, but then you bring the water into play.
That's not a very smart play and it only gains a limited amount of yardage.

Another benefit of laying up left is that on your 2nd shot in, you only have to carry a small corner of the pond instead of the whole thing by laying up short and straight.  

Perhaps, but now you have the bunker to contend with from that angle.

The same is also true on CPC 16 if one chooses to lay up to the left, as only a small portion of the water much be carried.


That's not true.
You have to carry the chasm left, which just happens to be the Pacific Ocean.  No heroic carry is necessary for golfers who go far left at Delta.

Patrick,

Like Forest Gumps momma always said, "Stupid is as stupid does".  Its only not smart to go to the left on DV 18 if you go in the water.  As Tom said, its a common play and it works out for the vast majority, or else they wouldn't do it.

As to contending with the bunker on DV 18, thanks for pointing out yet another similarity to CPC 16 that I previously missed.  After playing to the left on CPC 16, you have two bunkers you have to contend with to get on the green.  Very nice point, I thank you

As to a 90 yard carry over water being heroic?  I don't think anyone would call that heroic with the exception of the 70 and older womens group, even if it is the ocean.  But nice try on that one.  

Using your same logic though, you can more appropriatly use that description on DV 18 because you have so much more trouble to deal with, water right and OB left.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Did you read the posts after mine?  The further confirming evidence from locals?

Sure, they said the wind blows. Non-comparitive statements.
But, Kevin Reilly indicated that it does so more at CPC

1.  I know very well where 16CPC sits; I have played the hole five times.  I continue to maintain my position.  You refute this based on what?  You have zero knowledge of the DV hole.  I do.  I suppose you just choose to disbelieve me, again.

As I type this it's 18 degrees warmer in Pittsburgh, California and the wind is blowing THREE (3) times harder in Monterey, California, and, that's not on the penisula or the point at # 16.

2. If all golfers were as smart as you are playing the game, more would play it as well as you.  But I'd also point you to Kalen's posts as to why the DV hole is played as it is in terms of a layup.

Perhaps I should consider writing a book on the mental aspects of golf and course management.

3. Re the wind, you might have consulted a map, and seen that DV is pretty close to other bodies of water.  But that being said, wind doesn't stick to bodies of water here... You might want to drive along I-580 sometime out here and notice the multitudes of giant windmills.  In any case, I gather you finally grant that perhaps I was telling the truth and nothing more re this.  Gee, thanks.  It only took two other corraborators.

I did consult a map and Delta doesn't sit on the water, CPC sits on and high above the Pacific

4.  The rules situation at CPC is a weird one, discussed in here before.  I don't think you could call the ocean casual water - look up the definition of that and you'll see why.  Bt they do make it quite clear in signs and I believe on the scorecard that the ocean is to be treated as part of the course.  So no need to cite rules to me, thank you very much.  I know the rules; although from your prior posts I gave you a HUGE benefit of the doubt that you did so.  CPC is just an odd situation in how they do this, but the bottom line remains that it is what it is, and the two holes thus play exactly the same in terms of shots missed to the left.  Pulling teeth is easier than getting you to see things, btw.....

Tom, it's either got to be played as casual water or a water hazard, a lateral water hazard.

" A lateral water hazard is a water hazard  or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not possible, or is deemed by the committee to be impracticable to drop a ball BEHIND  the water hazard in accordance with rule 26-1b."

Unless the committee is giving free airfair to Hawaii or Japan.

There we have it.  We also have Kalen's posts confirming that the play is similar in the two golf holes.  We have Kalen and Kevin Reilly confirming the wind.  I gather that's not enough?
Read Kevin's post more carefully.
And, Kalen NEVER made a comparative statement about the wind.   However, citing the US weather service today, the wind is three times the velocity in Monterey versus Pittsburg.

As for your contention that the two layups have a "huge" difference is laughable.  Yes, one does have to cross water no matter what at CPC; whereas at DV, one does have available a 70 yard bunt that no one ever uses and leaves 130 more yards over water.  If that's a huge difference in your world than God help you.  The fact remains that for the good player, it's damn near always just a straight shot at the green; the lesser player picks his poison to the left, deciding how far he wants to hit the ball and how close he wants to get to the green.

I'm glad to see that you're finally starting to come around

You tell me then, if I have distorted your previous overall position.   Here's how I understand that: you grudgingly accept that beauty factors into the golf equation, but only on a very tangential level, falling way way way after matters directly effecting "play" of a golf hole - and one way or the other, it stops at the edge of the golf course - that is, nothing beyond the edge of the course has any bearing whatsoever on anything.

Is that incorrect?

NO, it's not.
Perhaps that's part of the problem.
You don't understand my position.

I believe this exercise with these two golf holes reveals a major weakness in your position.  But I'd never expect you to accept it.

For once in this thread, You're CORRECT