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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2007, 11:01:36 PM »
JWL,

Morse never sold ocean front property on the current course post 1919. It is my understanding he sold that particular parcel prior to the course being built.


Bob

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2007, 11:09:14 PM »
JWL:

I get that hypothetical most definitely, and appreciate it.  I have to question as you do if they would love the inland hole had this happened in reverse.  But that is not for me to say.

 ;D

James Bennett

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Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2007, 11:15:39 PM »
For those who haven't been there, here is the new (the old went 60 degrees to the left from near here, as I understand).



James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2007, 11:28:54 PM »
Bob Huntley
I was told that Morse wanted to continue the routing along the coastline, but was offered the opportunity to sell the triangular piece of land that resides between the old 5th and the ocean cove.   Against his desires at the time, he sold that piece of land and routed the course inland, thus the inland 5th hole.   My question was what would be the discussion if the present 5th was built originally, and the present owners wanted to sell that ocean cove property (very very valuable today) and built a new inland hole just like what was originally built.   I think the uproar would be off the charts....but that's jmho.

Adam Clayman

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Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2007, 12:36:27 AM »
Jim Lipe, Do you think anyone but you guys would've built a cut green there?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2007, 09:21:09 AM »
Thanks, Bob. I wish I could recall if it was my mistake or the PGA announcers, but all I can say is I thought they said it was Schwab's house on the site of the old 5th. Probably they didn't -- these guys are prepped a lot better than I am.

So back to Eric's question -- what is there?

They said Schwab's house is on the old No. 5 green site. I don't know if they were right or wrong, but that's what they said.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2007, 10:00:50 AM »
I believe there are two mansions on the site of the old #5- one is owned by Schwab, one by another gazillionaire.


JESII

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Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2007, 10:31:41 AM »
Jim Lipe, Do you think anyone but you guys would've built a cut green there?

Adam,

With all due respect, and I truly do respect your views on here, that question is preposterous.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 10:32:25 AM by JES II »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2007, 11:12:12 AM »
Sully- Let me get this straight. You've never seen the hole? Did you inspect the site pre-construction?

Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't think it preposterous.

Added:No one has even mentioned how well the green fits with the all the others. I'm sure a close examination by someone with a good eye would say, not.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 11:16:35 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2007, 12:33:36 PM »
Adam:

Now we're getting into some different and interesting issues.

Regarding the green fitting in with the others, or not.... I can say that as a golfer playing the course, I sure didn't notice any difference in this green from the others by any criteria. But I don't seek out such things so it would have to be pretty glaring for me to see it.  So I am curious about this, and I don't recall us covering this before.  Honest question with a goal to learn:  what do you see (or have you heard from others with good eyes for such things) about this green which shows that it does not fit in?

TH

ps - for my peace of mind, can you give me a yes that you understand how you mischaracterized the takes of me and Mucci regarding beauty on golf courses?  As weird as it sounds, it is the honest to god truth that he claims such has ZERO role.  The take of Tom Doak, as echoed by you (that one of the aims of architecture is to maximize beauty when it's available) was 100% denied by him before.  Thus my constant battles with him on this issue.

Kalen Braley

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Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2007, 12:36:28 PM »
Bob Huntley
I was told that Morse wanted to continue the routing along the coastline, but was offered the opportunity to sell the triangular piece of land that resides between the old 5th and the ocean cove.   Against his desires at the time, he sold that piece of land and routed the course inland, thus the inland 5th hole.   My question was what would be the discussion if the present 5th was built originally, and the present owners wanted to sell that ocean cove property (very very valuable today) and built a new inland hole just like what was originally built.   I think the uproar would be off the charts....but that's jmho.

I understand what you are saying here, and I'm sure the uproar would indeed be off the charts.  If the 5th were along on the ocean for all those years, and then they wanted to move it inland to an uphil blind approach, I'm sure there would be people demanding that heads be rolled.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2007, 12:36:49 PM »
What comes after "umpteeth"?

Patrick, let's get this straight once and for all, shall we?  My FOCUS is not on any particular views - I just do notice them.  

And Adam - you have this exactly backwards.  It was ME - TOM HUCKABY - ME MYSELF AND I - who have always maintained that:

"When one is discussing the nuts and bolts of the GCA, beauty is just one of the factors."

It was ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY, DEFINITELY, NOT PATRICK MUCCI.

Mucci has maintained for years on here that BEAUTY DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL.  ZERO, NIL, NADA.

That's completely false.
What I've maintained is that features beyond the boundaries of the golf course are irrelevant in the play of the golf course, and that it's what's within the boundaries, and on the field of play, the golf course, that's relevant.  The rest is merely window dressing.

Or, are you going to insist that you love Sand Hills for the views beyond the golf course, the same views in every direction, on every hole.

You don't schlep to Sand Hills from anywhere to experience what's beyond the boundaries of the property, you go there for the golf course, and only the golf course.
[/color]

The man is clueless and soul-less on this point.  

You should be so clueless.
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You have no choice now but to agree with me as you cite time after time instances of beauty mattering (like the delayed gratification you feel on the 6th tee); and disagree with Mucci (who unless he completely changes his position now, must necessarily say that doesn't matter a bit).

You do have a choice.
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And that's all I've ever argued on that general point.  Not that beauty matters most, not that one ought to focus on it, not any degree to which it should matter; but just that it MATTERS AT ALL.  That is DOES factor into the equation.   Mucci tries time and time again to put words in my mouth; I correct him time and time again.  

That's also not true.
Evidently, you've changed your position.
Previously, the external factors beyond the golf course's boundaries were paramount to you.  It would seem that you're gravitating closer to my position and away from your former one.
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Because I 100%, COMPLETELY, ABSOLUTELY, agree with the following:

Great GCA is fortunate to marry the site's specific beauty, as it does at many points at PB. But it also does more than elevate one's spirit the way one who just walks around the Carmel Bay feels. Great GCA takes us on a journey.

Where you and I differ is that you found the old journey to be superior - I find the new journey, which was the architect's intent, to be superior.  To me it's a simple difference of opinion at that point.

But Mucci would say, and has said many times in so many words, this:


Great GCA in no way cares about marrying the site's specific beauty.

That's both a lie and a distortion of the facts.

Your argument was NEVER about the site, it was about factors EXTERNAL to the site, factors far removed from the site
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And he would leave it at that.  No part of beauty matters.

Again, you make a false claim and fail to differentiate between on-site and off-site features.
[/color]

THAT'S my long-time difference of opinion with him.  Understand now?

Your long time difference with me has be on factors/beauty BEYOND the boundaries of the golf course.

I'm glad to see that you're rethinking your position and getting more on-site in your perspective.
[/color]

To me, the new 5 is more fun to play, it offers more shot options (because there was only one way to play the old 5, and even if the new 5 is wet, well one still can work the ball either way with no blocking, one can come in high or low - all things one couldn't do at all on the old 5); and yes, it is way more beautiful (and again, that's only one part of it, and a small one, and certainly NOT one I am hanging my hat on).

You continue to ignore one of the most important factors in assessing a golf course, THE ROUTING.

Don't the rating panels direct the rater to evaluate "ease of the routing" and the "walk in the park" ?

The new hole disrupts the routing, the old hole preserved it.

As to whether the new hole is better, worse or the same as the old hole, and by what margins, is immaterial to the issue, and mostly a matter of opinion and preference, but on the critical issue of the routing, and the new hole fails miserably in the "routing" category, and for that, it must receive the obligatory demerits.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2007, 12:46:54 PM »
Tom H

In reading the arguments agains the new hole, I just have to wonder if Morse would have been able to build the hole along the coast as he originally wished, and the present owners of PB would have come along and sold that land for homesites and constructed a new hole inland. (like the one that was there previously)
Somehow I don't think the same arguments would be forthcoming.   What do you think?
BTW, the new green is exactly the same size as the previous green.

JWL,

You can't ask that question in an isolated context, focusing solely on the 5th hole, while ignoring others.

Had the original 5th been along the ocean, where it is today, there's no doubt in my mind that # 6 wouldn't be the hole it is today.  

I'll let other speculate as to its form and par, but, individual hole design can't be seperated from the design of all of the other holes and the routing.

Huckaby attempts same, because to include the other factors would undermine, if not destroy, his argument.

Just when I've gotten close to completing TEPaul's long, arduous education on GCA, another pupil who desperately needs my help comes along on the left coast. ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2007, 01:39:18 PM »
Patrick:

Forget 5PB specifically for a moment.  I absolutely do not ignore the routing issues and if you'd read a bit, you'd see that.  I just disagree with you and Adam and find the new routing to be better as I found the old inland turn to be jarring - especially since I knew the architect himself didn't want to go that way. Note several others agree with me on this, including Jim Franklin who just posted.  But it's just a fair difference of opinion.
 
Of far more interest is the latest installment in the "does beauty matter" saga.  I have made no changes in any part of my long-time position.  You continue to mischaracterize it, I continue to correct you, but that seems to be our roles in GCA life.    Obviously we disagree on the definition of the word "site" as it pertains to this.

So let's get back to brass tacks.  Feel free to base this on boundaries of the golf course, as you always have.

But if that is your take, then I challenge you:  go back to the picture I posted of #6 PB (reply 26, page 1 of this thread).  Is that not how you see the hole? Is not the part not blacked out all that matters to you?  If you do base things on the boundaries of the golf course, then does not the ocean next to but outside the boundaries of PB fais to exist at all as you see things?

And if the answer to each of these questions is yes - which is necessarily must be unless given your insistence that things outside the boundary of the golf course don't matter - then you disagree with me, Adam, and Tom Doak, as maximizing beauty means nothing to you - simply because that blacked-out part doesn't exist!  It's outside the boundaries of the course after all.

And once again, as I've corrected you at least 50 times, the blackened out part is not the FOCUS - no, the non-blackened part is obviously the meat and potatoes of the thing - but to say the blackened part doesn't matter at all - as you do yet again here  - is where you remain oh so wrong.

But wrong is a strong term.  Let's just say you disagree with Doak and dare I say anyone else who's ever designed a golf course, as well as the vast majority of golfers.

You're gonna need to be Houdini again to get out of this one.  Cut your losses.  Just ask me not to doubt the great Houdini... I'll accept that with a smile.  Anything other than this, well...

The world awaits, my magician friend.



TH

btw - as to the what if Jim Lipe asked, of course 6 would have been different if 5 was where it was all along.  I've speculated many times that the tee would be down and to the right and it would be a spectacular risk-reward short par 4.  It remains an open question as to whether the entirety of that would be a net positive... who knows?  But that's not what Jim is asking.  Artful dodge of his question, oh great one.   ;) ;D
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 02:54:15 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2007, 01:48:11 PM »
I agree with Adam that the new #5 green does not feel the same as the others, but I do prefer the new hole to the old one. That old uphill tee shot was my least favorite on the course. I certainly do not have a problem with the "flow" and the new hole.
Mr Hurricane

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2007, 03:04:47 PM »

I absolutely do not ignore the routing issues and if you'd read a bit, you'd see that.  I just disagree with you and Adam and find the new routing to be better as I found the old inland turn to be jarring -

You must be kidding.
You're going to compare the walks from # 4 green to the old and new # 5 tee, and the walk from the current # 5 green to # 6 tee to the walk from the old # 5 green to the # 6 tee and tell us that the new configuration is less jaring ?

That the routing is BETTER ?
BETTER ?
You mean the views are better, certainly the routing isn't.
[/color]

especially since I knew the architect himself didn't want to go that way.

That's PURE B.S.
Now you're going to devine what the architects wanted 80 and 90 years ago ?
Which ones ?
Neville ?
Grant ?
Egan ?
The committee ?
Fowler ?
Hunter ?
Lapham ?
[/color]

Note several others agree with me on this, including Jim Franklin who just posted.  But it's just a fair difference of opinion.

Having others agree with you doesn't validate your argument
[/color]
 
Of far more interest is the latest installment in the "does beauty matter" saga.  I have made no changes in any part of my long-time position.  You continue to mischaracterize it, I continue to correct you, but that seems to be our roles in GCA life.    Obviously we disagree on the definition of the word "site" as it pertains to this.

Site is location specific.
Sight extends to the horizon.
I've always evaluated golf courses based on what's INSIDE the property line
[/color]

So let's get back to brass tacks.  Feel free to base this on boundaries of the golf course, as you always have.
When judging the qualities of the architecture of a golf course, you can't include factors beyond the property line.
[/color]

But if that is your take, then I challenge you:  go back to the picture I posted of #6 PB (reply 26, page 1 of this thread).



Is that not how you see the hole? Is not the part not blacked out all that matters to you?  If you do base things on the boundaries of the golf course, then does not the ocean next to PB fails to exist at all as you see things?

The absurdity of your efforts is remarkable.

The cliffs are an integral part of the hole, the golf course.
They form the topography that shapes the hole and defines its boundaries.   As to the ocean, tell me how much of it you see when hitting your 2nd shot ?  Once you leave the tee the ocean behind the green is invisible until you come close to reaching the green.  It's a non-entity.  Is it a more pleasing backdrop than bombed out buildings ?  Certainly, but, when removed from play it's not a factor in terms of the architecture or the play of the hole.
[/color]

And if the answer to each of these questions is yes - which is necessarily must be unless given your insistence that things outside the boundary of the golf course don't matter - then you disagree with me, Adam, and Tom Doak, as maximizing beauty means nothing to you - simply because that blacked-out part doesn't exist!  It's outside the boundaries of the course after all.  

NO, they're not.
The cliffs define the land the hole sits on, they form the margins of play.  Tell me you understand that.

Your blacked out example is irrelevant unless you're playing at midnight.

By the way, how do you maximize beauty on property outside of the golf course ?
[/color]

And once again, as I've corrected you at least 50 times, the blackened out part is not the FOCUS - no, the non-blackened part is obviously the meat and potatoes of the thing - but to say the blackened part doesn't matter at all - as you do yet again here  - is where you remain oh so wrong.

NO, you're wrong because you don't understand what constitues the boundaries of the hole, golf course or property.
When golfers hit their recovery shots from the beach, they do so because their ball is in play, in a hazard, that's an integral part of the golf course.

If it wasn't part of the golf course it would be [size=8x]O.B.[/size]

Please, tell me that you understand the concept of what constitutes the boundaries of a golf course, what's in play, and what's removed from play.

Then, go back and edit the absurd blacked out picture you posted to reflect what's in play, what's an integral part of the golf course.


But wrong is a strong term.  Let's just say you disagree with Doak and dare I say anyone else who's ever designed a golf course, as well as the vast majority of golfers.

So, disagreeing with Doak implies errors in thinking ?

How would you relate that to the 7th and 12th hole at GCGC ?

While I respect Tom's views, infallibility has yet to be confered
And, I don't think my views and Tom Doak's views are that far apart, once YOU understand the issue.
[/color]

You're gonna need to be Houdini again to get out of this one.  Cut your losses.  Just ask me not to doubt the great Houdini... I'll accept that with a smile.  Anything other than this, well...

This is child's play for the Great Houdini.

Do you understand that the cliffs and beach are an integral part of the golf course at Pebble Beach, whereas, the land beyond the boundaries at Sand Hills is OUT-OF-BOUNDS and not an integral part of the golf course ?

Do you understand the difference ?
[/color]

The world awaits, my magician friend.

PRESTO !
[/color]

as to the what if Jim Lipe asked, of course 6 would have been different if 5 was where it was all along.  I've speculated many times that the tee would be down and to the right and it would be a spectacular risk-reward short par 4.  It remains an open question as to whether the entirety of that would be a net positive... who knows?  But that's not what Jim is asking.  Artful dodge of his question, oh great one.

You should know that the original 6th was a par 4.
What does that tell you ?
[/color]


JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2007, 03:10:19 PM »
Adam
You may be right about Nicklaus being the only one that would build a "cut green" in that situation.   After all, that is all we no how to design, because Jack designs only to his game and he only knows hot to cut the ball.   We are still trying to figure out how to design "hook greens".
No seriously, let me try to give you some of the reasons why we built a green that you see as a "cut green" at the new 5th.
First of all, the natural lay of the land is from high on the left down the low of the cliff on the right down to the beach.   Jack's natural inclination is too construct the green into the natural slope allowing the ball to bounce on the green from the high side.  This also allows for construction of the bunkers beneath the green to not have to "fight" the natural slope and force a raising of the green on the low side.   I am quite sure that if the low was on the left, Jack would have built what you would call a "hook green" in that situation, although,
Secondly, we analyzed the other par threes on the course and determine that based on your criteria, the 12th and 17th would be considered "hook greens" because the green opens up on the right side.   The 7th, being so short and surrounded by bunkers didn't 'favor' either shot shape.    So, we decided that a left to right opening gave the course a better balance in approach shots.  It was also more similar to the shot that was required on the original 5th hole, with the way the trees hung over the approach on the right side of the hole.
Thirdly, the wind, as shown in the picture in the thread, most predominatly comes from the ocean side and since the hole was not going to be particularly long, Jack felt that a draw approach shot would be carried left of the green setting up a challenging pitch to a green going away from the player, whereas a cut shot into the wind would be the proper shot, and hold it's line.   Thus, shotmaking would be at a premium even on a middle to short iron shot.   This proved to be true during the Open, because, as I understand it, the 5th was the most difficult hole relative to par in the Championship.   Some of that must be attributed to the long rough that came in too close on the left side and didn't allow the "bounce in" from the left side that Jack had designed into the hole.   Jack was not happy that the USGA had changed the design intent of the hole, and he predicted the difficulty that the hole played.
These are just some of our thoughts into why a "cut green" was designed at the new 5th.   I am assuming that we would not be the only designer to design with such criteria.

In regards to whether the hole "fits" with the other holes.   All I can say is that that was our intention completely.   We built the green exactly the same size and pitch that was on the original 5th green, just in a different shape.   We tried very hard to duplicate the bunker style that existed at the time at PB.   We had a lot of people critiquing as we went along, and all, at the time, felt like the new green/bunkers etc. did, in fact, fit well with the existing course.   Everyone has there own opinion as to how well we did in that respect.   I'm sorry that everyone can't be pleased with our work, for whatever reason.

Mr. Mucci
I was only addressing the location of the 5th hole in my hypothetical.   You are correct that the 6th tee most likely wouldn't have been located up the hill as it is today.   However, based on the distances that players hit the ball when the original course was designed, I would think that the 6th tee would have been located down near where the present 5th green is, and slightly left.   Please believe me when I tell you that we had considerable conversation about moving the 6th tee down the hill closer to the new 5th green.    We felt that the hole would play better playing into the counter slope on the left rather than the fairway falling away from the line of ball flight on the tee shot.   However, as much as we tried, we couldn't get enough distance because of the new lots created left of #5 to have a legitimate par 5.   The original course could have had a par 5 with the tee down lower, but it would undoubtedly been moved up to get the distance needed for today's player.   It would not be viewed as a great hole as a long par 4, in our opinion.   But, that is another discussion.
So, I agree that it would be preferable not to have to climb that hill to the 6th tee, but when everything is considered, including the views that are afforded, we felt it made absolute good sense to move the 5th hole down to the ocean edge.   Regardless of the flow that some think the old 5th gave the course, it was generally viewed as the weakest hole on the course, and when the opportunity availed itself to build a hole in the location that the original design intent, we were please to be able to be a part of that change.
BTW, we also made several other changes on the course during that time, but I have yet to read where anyone has commented on them.   I can only assume that we must have done a better job of blending that work with the original than some think we did at the new 5th.
Sorry for the dissertation, but I thought some might like to know the hows/whys to how the new 5th came into being.
Cheers


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2007, 03:15:01 PM »
Jim Lipe, Do you think anyone but you guys would've built a cut green there?

Adam, you obviously have a different idea on how a hole should have been set on this piece of land... please elaborate.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2007, 03:24:39 PM »
Patrick:

Nice try - you once again avoided the real issues very artfully, preferring to focus on relatively meaningless things.  That is the art of the great Houdini of discussion and debate!  You are a master at this - one of the best I've ever encountered.

OK, the cliffs count.  I never said they didn't.  I just couldn't make that photo occur in 3D, and I went a little overboard to the right of 6 up by the green. I assure you I know what's in play, although that part to the right of 6 that's blacked out would likely require climbing equipment!

In any case OBVIOUSLY the main issue is this: in your world the "sightlines" extending outward do not count at all - you've made that very clear.  And on this issue, you do continue to disagree with Doak, every designer who's ever designed a course, and damn near all golfers.  

But of course being different is nothing new to you.  You just remain patently full of shit on this issue.  ALL views matter.  Whether they stop at the edge of the golf course or not is completely irrelevant.

Of course our bigger difference is this:  you like to evaluate what you call "architecture."  I evaluate golf courses and what it's like to experience playing the game on them.  And I say vive l'difference there.  

BTW, yes I do find the new routing better at PB.  I never said the walk back to the tee on 6 didn't constitute a "hit" to the routing nor that it is a non-event; I just find it on the overall perhaps "less bad" that the previous jarring turn inland  which to me is finally, thankfully gone. And many others do agree with me.. as some here agree with you.  That's just a difference of opinion and your insistence that somehow one way is right and other wrong is odd, or that my take here is preposterous, is odd.  But it is par for the course for you, that's for sure!

In any case, well done Houdini.  But you remain a far better magician than an evaluator of the greatness of golf courses.

 ;)

BTW, given our differences on so many things, I'm not sure I'm happy that you agree with me that the new hole is on the overall superior (which of course is the main point I've made in all of this).  Given your wacko views on beauty, your hurting my case,man!  So please do keep quiet on that, ok?

TH

ps to Adam if you ever read this... tell Phil Mickelson what an easy hole the new 5 is. ;D
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 03:40:32 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2007, 03:27:46 PM »
JWL,

The reality is that there's only so much Ocean front property, whether you're in the golf business or the residential development business, so I understand the desire to incorporate Ocean front property into the golf course, it's a desireable, limited commodity.

My bone of contention is Huckaby's denial that the routing takes a hit at that location, that the new routing is superior to the old routing, and that the walk back to # 6 tee is a non-event.

On balance, the new 5th hole may be better.
It certainly provides better views and more exposure to the wind, so, from a playability perspective, it's probably an enhancement, but, for Huckaby to state that the old 5th was more jaring, more of a disconnect in terms of the routing, is preposterous.  

But, that's consistent with some of his other theories on GCA. ;D


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2007, 03:31:57 PM »
I must say that a week is not quite complete without one of these "debates" that assume there is one answer.

Have you two ever played a round of golf together?



Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2007, 03:37:45 PM »
Greg,

Neither Tom Huckaby or Patrick Mucci exists in reality.
They are both highly sofiticated auto programmed chat robots.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2007, 03:37:50 PM »
I must say that a week is not quite complete without one of these "debates" that assume there is one answer.

Have you two ever played a round of golf together?




Greg - re PB5 specifically, you'll notice that I continually say there is no one answer and continually say I respect his opinions.  It is Patrick who calls my take preposterous, etc.  On the general "beauty" thing,well.... we've just battled this too long for either of us to give in now.

The fun part about this is yes, we have played the game together... and had a hell of a lot of fun doing so.  He schooled me big time playing the game.  The man is one hell of a good player.  He's also a helluva a lot of fun to spend time with.  Picture us both laughing and giving each other crap in these posts... that is the intent.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2007, 03:39:28 PM »
Greg,

Neither Tom Huckaby or Patrick Mucci exists in reality.
They are both highly sofiticated auto programmed chat robots.

Interesting... my wife was saying much the same thing as I've spent so much time on this damn site this rainy weekend... but then she had to also endure my shouts and whelping as our beloved football team once again pulled victory from the jaws of defeat this morning.  Man does indeed not live by golf alone.
 ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2007, 03:46:08 PM »

Nice try - you once again avoided the issues very artfully.

I thought I addressed each and every one of them.

Especially enlightening you as to what constitutes a golf course, including adjacent hazards
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OK, the cliffs count.  I never said they didn't.  

Then why did you black them out and refer to the blacked out parts as not part of the property and golf course ?
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I just couldn't make that photo occur in 3D.  But in your world the "sightlines" extending outward do not.  And on this issue, you do continue to disagree with Doak, every designer who's ever designed a course, and damn near all golfers.

That's only by your interpretation of the issue and your opinion based on that interpretation.
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But of course being different is nothing new to you.  You just remain patently full of shit on this issue.  ALL views matter.  Whether they stop at the edge of the golf course or not is completely irrelevant.

It's irrelevant to the architecture and irrelevant to the play of the hole, unless, the wind is impeded by the objects at the edge of the golf course.
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Of course our bigger difference is this:  you like to evaluate what you call "architecture."  I evaluate golf courses and what it's like to experience playing the game on them.  And I say vive l'difference there.

How would you evaluate Sandpines if it sat, in its current configuration, on the bluff above the Pacific at Pebble Beach.

Would it suddenly take on a new aura ?
Would it be deemed worthy ?
Would the off property elements and vistas improve the quality of the architecture and the playing experience ?
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BTW, yes I do find the new routing better at PB.  The jarring turn inland is finally, thankfully gone.

How would you categorize the walk from # 5 green to # 6 tee, the back tee that you play ?

If that's not Jarring, you're not being honest
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And many others do agree with me.. as some here agree with you.  That's just a difference of opinion and your insistence that somehow one way is right and other wrong is odd.  But it is par for the course for you, that's for sure!

People agreeing with you lends no validity to your argument.
And, I haven't heard one person claim that the old routing was more jarring than the new routing, or that the walk from the new 5th green to the 6th tee wasn't a disconnect when compared to the walk from the old 5th green to the 6th tee.

You keep repeating that the current walk is a non-event, but, those that have taken those walks know better.
Even JWL agreed that the walk was uncomfortable, but, a tradeoff in order to design an oceanside hole.
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In any case, well done Houdini.  But you remain a better magician than an evaluator of the greatness of golf courses.

The Great Houdini lives.
But, he needs to pull a new game out of his bag.
That may be the most difficult trick of all.
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