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Jason Topp

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Vistal - Phoenix
« on: February 08, 2007, 11:05:36 AM »
Like many others, I was in Phoenix last weekend.  Most of the courses I played have been amply and ably covered elsewhere, but I would like to hilight an affordable option – Vistal, which cost our group $90 for the first round and $30 for the second at peak season with a tee time made well in advance from out of town.

Located South of downtown up against South Mountain, Vistal is a complete rebuild on the site of the old Thurderbird golf course, owned by Jim Colbert when I was in college (80’s).  I never played Thunderbird, but by all accounts it was a dog tract.

Vistal, by contrast, packs a lot of interest in a very tight land area.  Much of that interest is created by very penal fairway bunkers which often impose a full stroke penalty due to the need to pitch out.  Thus, off the tee, one is constantly calculating his ability to place the ball where he wants, and weighing that option against the possibility of a 175-200 yard approach if he is too conservative off the tee.  

The best holes on the course are the 5th through the 9th, which play in all directions against the side of the mountain.  The course presents some truly unique challenges on other holes, ranging from a tree in front of the green on the par five first (sounds goofy, but I think it works), greens that favor shots of all shapes, including aerial, right to left, left to right and run up, a wonderful reverse redan green on a downhill par four (16) and a horseshoe (or tractor seat) green on the par five 17th.

Other positives about the course include (1) it is easily walkable, (2) the service is outstanding, without the butt-kissing or arrogant flavor so common at CCFAD’s and (3) it seems to be a course frequented by a lot of good local players based on my impression of the crowd on two separate visits spaced by a couple of years.  Unlike most courses, here the 7100 yard tees get as much use as the other options.

Why is this course priced lower than others?  I assume the primary reason is location – it is on the south part of town, in a poorer neighborhood and a hike from Scottsdale, depending on traffic.  Second, the conditioning is adequate, but more in the range of a decent municipal course than a CCFAD.  Third, the course is packed into a tight area, making stray shots from neighboring fairways a constant hazard. Finally, this course has been hurt by the unfortunate death of a customer from the drinking water several years ago – a scenario very unlikely to occur again given the measures they have in place now.

To me, none of these drawbacks takes away one iota from the golf.  So often, I leave Phoenix courses feeling like I have been mugged - paying top dollar for average golf.  Vistal makes you feel like you are getting away with something - very good golf for a more than reasonable price.

Definitely consider Vistal if you are looking for an affordable option in Phoenix.

Ron Whitten review:  

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/thunderbirds.html

Course website

http://www.vistalgolfclub.com/index.htm

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2007, 11:51:16 AM »
Not that there's anything wrong with winter visitors  experiencing the high priced places-at least once- like Troon North, Grayhawk, etc, there's something to be said for the Vistals and other places in the Valley of the Sun. After all, the weather is the same. The architecture or the "experience" may not be the same but there are many "good" options such as Vistal, Vista Verde, Longbow, Papago and Wigwam Gold out there.

I played Vistal a few years ago after the course was purchased by the new owners as a result of the tainted water death. I think I paid about $40 in prime season including a hot dog. It's what I call a "good value " course.

Now, instead of a hot dog, if any course gave a coupon for a Double Double at In-N-Out, that course would jump to the top of my "must play" list. ;D
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 11:55:53 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 11:39:36 PM »
I have played Vistal many times and always enjoyed it. It's a good layout with some really good holes and just a beastly long back 9 that can really challenge. The course was originally Thunderbirds GC, but that group sold it for reasons unknown to me.

I played there again this weekend, however, and noted that this winter (unlike in winters past) they did not overseed except for greens and tees. This was pretty obviously a financial decision, not a golf one. I have enjoyed playing dormant courses before, but was surprised at how much it simply did not work for this course. Here you have a lot of holes squeezed into a very tight area, mounding and small ribbons of desert are used to separate the holes. On prior visits, no matter the skill of my playing partners, I cannot recall players being in the wrong fairways with any regularity. But my group and everyone else on the course struggled with that issue this weekend. The mounds that, when covered in rough, normally help contain wayward shots, were of no help--balls ran right over them and into adjacent fairways or into desert, slowing play while searches were conducted for lost balls.

It was instructive for me. Some courses work when played dormant (Southern Dunes being an excellent example), but Vistal seemed a poorer course, and a dangerous one at that.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 12:16:41 PM »
"I never played Thunderbird, but by all accounts it was a dog tract." Jason Topp.

What do you think? I hope people will speak better of me when I have moved on..........
















Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 05:13:23 PM »
"I never played Thunderbird, but by all accounts it was a dog tract." Jason Topp.

What do you think? I hope people will speak better of me when I have moved on..........



Aiden:

Not sure if we have a miscommunication.  Your pictures are of the post renovation course which I praise very highly in the first post of this thread.  It bears no resemblance to what was there before.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 05:26:51 PM »
Jason,

I don't wish to have a storm in a tea cup here and maybe I did misunderstand you but.............. these images are of the original Thunderbirds golf course that subsequently was closed and re sold after the unfortunate death of a player who drank some tainted water. No big deal, I done. Take care :)

Aidan.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 05:35:53 PM »
Mea culpa! It would appear I have inserted foot in mouth for which I humbly apologize. I was under the impression that the course I shot many years ago was the original and the renovations happened after the "incident". Upon further research I discovered that.....

"In 2000 the golf course was completely re-designed and built by PGA Tour Design Services in consultation with local PGA Tour players Tom Lehman, Billy Mayfair, and Howard Twitty."

Jason, the first 6 diet Pepsi"s are on me next time you come to Santa Barbara. Forgiveness please......

Aidan.


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 05:40:51 PM »
Jason,

I don't wish to have a storm in a tea cup here and maybe I did misunderstand you but.............. these images are of the original Thunderbirds golf course that subsequently was closed and re sold after the unfortunate death of a player who drank some tainted water. No big deal, I done. Take care :)

Aidan.

No storm here.  My original post was a bit inaccurate.  The course re-opened under the Thunderbird name after the renovation (around 2000).  It converted to the name "Vistal" after the death.  The Ron Whitten article I linked above (which no longer works) explained the history.  This 2002 article gives the history  http://www.golfarizona.com/departments/coursereviews/phoenix/thunderbirds-golf-club.htm

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 10:04:47 PM »
Interesting history; I didn't really know any of that. I just know the first time I played it (March or April 2003) my yardage book still said Thunderbirds even though the course was called Vistal. And, as far as I know, they hadn't reversed the nines yet at that point.

From a GCA standpoint, among a number of good strategic holes, I think the par 5 9th is a real standout. It's a double dogleg par 5 that's about 540 from the back tees. Even for a big hitter, though, it would be tough to reach in two (the prevailing wind is into the player). The tee shot is downhill to a fairway that bends right to left around a steep fairway bunker. But without question the left side is the side to be on. The right side of the fairway falls away steeply--you can end up 15-20 feet below the upper level if you play down the more forgiving right side. But the punishment is then a blind shot--you can't see just where the lake cuts in from the right, or where the fairway bunker that sits in the middle of the landing area are exactly. From the upper half of the fairway, the troble can be seen, and a long player might even be able to reach the front of the green.

The green is also a treat. It's a huge green complex, a double green shared with number 18, including 3 distinct levels. Wonderful hole.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistal - Phoenix
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2010, 10:42:37 PM »
I have played Vistal and I think it is a very fun golf course and a tremendous value for the price.

I have told several friends from up here in Minneapolis that it is the perfect just-off-the-plane course. The first round is always going to be an adventure, so why not play someplace that is fun, a good value and won't beat you up.

I say leave the expensive places for when you've knocked at least some of the rust off your game.