For the Benefit of Mssrs. Paul and Kirk

[Mark Bourgeois]

"Mark, please don't have different size flagsticks.  That just kills me, even when I know how far it is." -- John Kirk

"I think resorting to different size flagsticks on a single course is the worst form of trickery----it's common, cheap, tasteless, troglodytish chicanery and foolish flukishness and the people responsible for it should be forced to sit in  unusually dirty, disgusting and really smelly mud-puddles for up to 26 hours at a time." -- TEPaul

Assumptions

"Suppressio veri" principles in force:
1. No 100 / 150 / 200 yardage plates, posts, bushes, etc.
2. No sprinkler-head yardages (no sprinkler heads at all)
3. Vast open spaces behind many greens
4. No framing or aiming bunkers
5. No trees or other "scaling" / framing structures
6. Greens often at or above eye level
7. Blindness

Picto-equation



+



=

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I think all seven of those "suppressio veri" principles are wonderful things in golf---frankly I love that kind of omission deception.

But resorting to something like different sized flag-sticks is not an act of omission, it's a slothful act of commission and I think people who use different size flagsticks on a single course are guilty of resorting to the worst form of trickery and common, cheap, tasteless, troglodytish chicanery and foolish flukishness and those people responsible for it should be forced to sit in unusually dirty, disgusting and really smelly mud-puddles for up to 26 hours at a time or at least long enough so that it can be proven that their bottoms have turned that particularly disgusting color of blue/gray and have become seriously wrinkled.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Ask TEPaul what he thinks of the flagstick on the last par 3 on the front nine at Maidstone, when compared to all the other flagsticks at Maidstone.

[Peter Pallotta]

But resorting to something like different sized flag-sticks is not an act of omission, it's a slothful act of commission and I think people who use different size flagsticks on a single course are guilty of resorting to the worst form of trickery and common, cheap, tasteless, troglodytish chicanery and foolish flukishness and those people responsible for it should be forced to sit in unusually dirty, disgusting and really smelly mud-puddles for up to 26 hours at a time or at least long enough so that it can be proven that their bottoms have turned that particularly disgusting color of blue/gray and have become seriously wrinkled.

TE
But how do you REALLY feel about different size flag sticks?  

Good post; and where else but at the cathedral of golf course architecture could I see mentioned the near-archaic concepts of "omission" and "commission"?

Yes, in short, the use of flag-sticks of varying lengths is sinful!

Peter

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Very tall flagsticks on blind holes are wonderful things to have in golf. However, teeny little sawed off flagsticks on holes clearly visible that are intentionally small only to purposefully deceive golfers into thinking the green is bigger or the hole is longer are the guileful machinations of troglodytes with blue/gray, wrinkled bottoms.

[John Kirk]

Is there a more terrifying shot in golf than standing an unknown distance from a green that sits in open space, on a course you never have played, with absolutely nothing to orient you to distance, a clubhouse full of members just off to the left and definitely in play, a steep dropoff carpeted in wooly rough to the right, a brisk wind blowing left to right, and only your own two eyes and experience to judge the shot?

Especially if the previous four flagsticks were all different heights!

I am less opposed to "framing" and "aiming" bunkers as most here.  I like bunkers that give visual cues regarding distance.

[TEPaul]

"Is there a more terrifying shot in golf than standing an unknown distance from a green that sits in open space, on a course you never have played, with absolutely nothing to orient you to distance, a clubhouse full of members just off to the left and definitely in play, a steep dropoff carpeted in wooly rough to the right, a brisk wind blowing left to right, and only your own two eyes and experience to judge the shot?"

Mark:

No there is not a more terrifying shot than that. Can you think of any reason under the sun why someone would want to add to that blood-pulsing scene a sawed-off little stub of a flagstick and resort to hocus-pocus and common chicanery?

[peter_p]

Mark,
Is the player of Woosnam or Archer stature?

Amusing story in Don Wade's book entitled Golf and the Art of War. This is Doug Sanders telling about a private match vs. Cary (Doc) Middlecoff at La Gorce in Hollywood, Florida, where Doc was a regular and there were big money games.
  "At that time, Doc had the most unbelieveable caddie in the world. In the days before everyone played by yardage, you went by what you eyes told you and this guy was phenomenal. He'd tell exactly what club to hit and how to hit it. He knew Doc's game inside and out and Doc trusted him completely. He was the best caddy I ever saw.
"Well, one day I had a big match lined up with Doc, so I went to this guy at La Gorce and payed him to fix some of the pins. He shortened some and add a little length to the others, and then he replaced a few of the regular pins with the ones he doctored. If a hole was cut on the front of the green, just over a bunker, he'd put the long pin in the cup, so the shot would look shorter than it actually was. As a result Doc was in bunkers all day. If a hole was cut towards the back of a green, he'd put in a longer pin and Doc's ball would still be rising as it went over the green. It wasn't long before the caddie was completely confused and Doc was getting all over his back.
"Twenty years later, I ran into the caddie and he told me that was the worst day he ever had.
" 'Doug, I've never been that bad at judging distances in my whole life. I don't know what the hell was going on. I gave Doc the wrong club every time'
"You should have seen his expression when I told him what happened"  

[Bill_McBride]

The answer to all this unseemly deception is, of course, the Sky Caddy!  

No longer will you have to look for non-existent sprinkler heads or wonder how to deal with flagsticks of differing heights.  You'll know the distance to the nearest inch!

[peter_p]

Mark,
Fudge factor. The fuzz factor would be police GPS.

[Jon Wiggett]

"Mark, please don't have different size flagsticks.  That just kills me, even when I know how far it is." -- John Kirk

"I think resorting to different size flagsticks on a single course is the worst form of trickery----it's common, cheap, tasteless, troglodytish chicanery and foolish flukishness and the people responsible for it should be forced to sit in  unusually dirty, disgusting and really smelly mud-puddles for up to 26 hours at a time." -- TEPaul

Assumptions

"Suppressio veri" principles in force:
1. No 100 / 150 / 200 yardage plates, posts, bushes, etc.
2. No sprinkler-head yardages (no sprinkler heads at all)
3. Vast open spaces behind many greens
4. No framing or aiming bunkers
5. No trees or other "scaling" / framing structures
6. Greens often at or above eye level
7. Blindness

Picto-equation



+

Is that rake there because of the bunker or is it really a target for your lazer distance binoculars? Then again it could be to hang your jacket up on if it is warm.

I though that flagsticks should be 7ft?

[Doug Siebert]

Often the shorter than normal flagsticks on some holes are there because the green is especially exposed to the elements.

I really don't see anything wrong with the practice of having different flagstick heights.  Even if it just done to confuse the golfer (though when I've seen it done it is usually done for a reason)  Why is it OK for the architect to attempt to do it by using hills and bunkers to trick the eye, but using flagsticks to trick the eye is not?

I love it how the GCA purists wish strokesavers, marked sprinkler heads and 150 plates -- let alone lasers and GPS -- had never sullied the game of golf, but think that nonuniform flagstick heights are wrong and caddies who give you the yardage from their own private books (or just tell you what club you should take) are fine.

Pot...kettle...

[Bill_McBride]

Often the shorter than normal flagsticks on some holes are there because the green is especially exposed to the elements.

I really don't see anything wrong with the practice of having different flagstick heights.  Even if it just done to confuse the golfer (though when I've seen it done it is usually done for a reason)  Why is it OK for the architect to attempt to do it by using hills and bunkers to trick the eye, but using flagsticks to trick the eye is not?

I love it how the GCA purists wish strokesavers, marked sprinkler heads and 150 plates -- let alone lasers and GPS -- had never sullied the game of golf, but think that nonuniform flagstick heights are wrong and caddies who give you the yardage from their own private books (or just tell you what club you should take) are fine.

Pot...kettle...

You must have missed the smileys.

 

[Mark Bourgeois]

At Alwoodley, every flagstick is of a shorter than standard height, which for me contributed to the deception on many holes as it worked in concert with the large greens and / or openness behind green to trick the eye.

With one exception:


How ya like me now -- ha!

[RJ_Daley]

That is Britain's smallest man, is it not? Tom Thumb himself....

[Joe Hancock]

Tonight, on BBC 5..."Honey, I Shrunk the Pro"

[Mark Bourgeois]

Go on like that, lads, and you'll find Mr Goby's wit is a saber to run yer through right quick!