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Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
International folding - now
« on: February 08, 2007, 01:47:36 AM »
Tim Finchem and Jack Vickers, at loggerheads over several aspects of The International (including the date), have agreed to disagree. The cancellation of this year's International will be announced at a news conference this (Thursday) morning.
The law of unintended consequences thus flows from the PGA Tour Playoffs and wipes out the one quirky golf tournament on the summer tour. And next?
Oh, and if you'd like to hold a golf tournament over Fourth of July weekend... space is available.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 01:50:07 AM by Tim_Cronin »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2007, 02:03:56 AM »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2007, 10:33:50 AM »
Disappointing for us in the Mile High City. It was fun to spend a day a year watching people who actually could play this damn game.

Also a loss for a local charity, the Boys and Girls Clubs. Their inner city kids participated as volunteers, which was a good experience for them, and the clubs got a lot of money from the tournament.

Sic Transit Stableford.  
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2007, 10:44:53 AM »
Disappointing indeed.
Last year I used the International as an excuse to revist Ballyneal with my 12 year old son.  We unexpectedly met a couple of GCA people there, Adam Clayman & Paul Hermsmeyer.  The International has always been fun for us as a family.  

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2007, 11:17:20 AM »
I worked as a volunteer at the International for a few years and will miss it.  It was great for us here in Colorado to get to see the pros and spend time at a great course.

What is truly sad is all the money that was funnelled through to local charities will now be gone.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2007, 11:53:36 AM »
Very disappointing indeed.  There were times when I wasn't so enamored with the scoring system but it was a nice change of pace.  Despite Tiger's usual absence, the International always drew a good field--Els, Goosen, Singh, Mickelson and Garcia were regulars.  It's a shame.  The good news is now maybe the Denver area can host a "Champions" tour event. ::)

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2007, 12:32:06 PM »
Very disappointing indeed.  There were times when I wasn't so enamored with the scoring system but it was a nice change of pace.  Despite Tiger's usual absence, the International always drew a good field--Els, Goosen, Singh, Mickelson and Garcia were regulars.  It's a shame.  The good news is now maybe the Denver area can host a "Champions" tour event. ::)

Tim,

It's probably not the last we'll hear of Castle Pines GC as a tournament venue. There was always talk, albeit lame IMO, of Castle Pines GC hosting a US Open. That won't happen, but a lesser USGA event or maybe a PGA Championship might be possible. They certainly have the infrastructure (the entire course is cabled for TV) and facilities. One problem that won't go away even with global warming: The predictably unpredictable weather that plaques that ridge south of Denver nearly year round.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Max Caulkins

Re:International folding - now
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2007, 01:39:53 PM »
Does this announcement increase the chances that C&C's Colorado Golf Club might be able to get on the tour schedule sooner rather than later? In speaking to one of the principals at CGC, he made it clear that hosting a Tour event (he actually said "a major") was one of their goals. I would assume that not having the International in the neighborhood would make this desire slightly more attainable, even if the pool of sponsors is likely much the same as the one that ducked Mr. Vickers for the last few years.

It is sad to see the International go.  Over the years, the tournament has raised  a bunch of $$$ for local charities, particularly my favorite one, Boys and Girls Clubs of Metro Denver. BGCMD honored Jack Vickers as its "Champion of Youth" 4 years ago, and tournament director Greg Vickers sits on the BGCMD board of directors.  :-[

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2007, 02:31:06 PM »
Very disappointing indeed.  There were times when I wasn't so enamored with the scoring system but it was a nice change of pace.  Despite Tiger's usual absence, the International always drew a good field--Els, Goosen, Singh, Mickelson and Garcia were regulars.  It's a shame.  The good news is now maybe the Denver area can host a "Champions" tour event. ::)

Tim,

I would agree - can't think of another big name star who bypassed the International other than Tiger.  

Is there talk about Denver hosting a champions tour event?  

There was one in the mid-eighties at Plum Creek.

Scott
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

John Kavanaugh

Re:International folding - now
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2007, 02:45:02 PM »
You Denver guys will soon have the pleasure of watching the 2008 Pub-Links at Murphy Creek..

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2007, 03:22:53 PM »
Is there talk about Denver hosting a champions tour event?  

There was one in the mid-eighties at Plum Creek.

Scott,

I haven't heard anything about a senior event--I just threw that out because there's now a void in the Denver market and I wanted to poke a little fun at the champions tour (does anyone besides the players and their friends and family care about that tour?).  Actually, even without a PGA Tour event here, Denver probably isn't a good market for the seniors--they seem to need an area that is starved for sports generally in order to draw well.  

Good news about the Publinx going to Murphy Creek.  It's not must-see viewing, but that's a feather in Murphy Creek's cap, which is great.  I think I need to play that course again--it's been awhile for me.  

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2007, 04:44:52 PM »
If the International falls off the PGA Tour schedule in the Colorado forest where no one is there to hear it, will it make a sound? Where would the architecture and experience alone (without the tournament exposure and cache) place CPGC on our list of places we must seek out and play?

Will "Castle Pines Collection of Golf Holes Club" surely follow?

Will milkshakes be the lesser for it?



Jack Vickers sure as hell tried hard to make a tournament out it.  I thought the original concept was best:

-two days of 72 players each day qualifying.
-one day at 64
-one day at 32?
-one day with just 24

all without points carrying over.

I miss the original International, the carryover points tournament was something different, not necessarily better.

Doak  (weak) 6

I don't have a copy of the Confidential Guide, but I would be curious to see the factors to Doak only giving it a weak 6.  Seemed to be a pretty good golf course to me, all things considered.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2007, 04:47:22 PM »
Tom gave it a 6 in his Confidnetial Guide
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2007, 04:52:06 PM »
I would agree - can't think of another big name star who bypassed the International other than Tiger.  
Unfortunately he is the only one who really matters and is often the difference between a tournament drawing well, both in person and on TV, and not.

Methinks there may be lots of "PGA tour" dates becoming available in the next few years, particularly the lower tier events.

The Canadian Open is also in big trouble, with no sponsor, and no chance of getting a strong field as it now has a lousy date the week after the British.  They (the RCGA) is apparently lobbying hard to get the International's date but that is unlikely to happen.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2007, 11:21:35 AM »
It might have been a 7, but the one architectural feature which was its "signature" was its several "collection" bunkers where a ball landing on the green rolled back into a pot bunker.  I don't have a problem with that conceptually, but the execution of it at Castle Pines was ridiculously contrived, and since that was the course's signature feature I could not help but lower its overall grade in the Guide, as I wrote at that time.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2007, 11:51:37 AM »
ScottSz

A Doak 6 IS a pretty good golf course. The "weak" part was my personal comment. That's what happens when one calls everything is "great", there's no gradation.  (Many multiple plays and spectator "International" tours of this course including three of the first four.) No room at all for it in my personal proverbial top 100 US. It is a very pretty place and a great experience although the milkshakes and "locker room" are overrated.  

Holes to me to really note are 8 (nice angles), the cleverly disguised #13 - once over the crest everything really runs away from you  and um, err, I guess that's about it as I see it.  Nice houses, too.  

Way too many 8's, 9's and especially "10's" given out around here, credibility gets thrown out the window.

Quite honestly it was a horrible venue for a tournament with more than say 10,000 fans. Very few cross-overs due to the two loop routing - a goat track to walk especially at 7800 ft, high-altitude golf for the professionals was not "worth the adjustments" around PGA time .....  I'm honestly surprized the tournament lasted as long as it did.

As a tournament it had a lot working against it beyond Tiger not attending.

Only two good holes?  You've got to be kidding.

#1 Par five basically forcing a tee shot down the right side of the fairway if you want a look a the green.  Safer play is down the left side, but no view of the green.  While working at the International, I don't know how many times I saw tee balls in the trees or out of bounds right in an attempt to hug the right side.  Hole has beautiful views as well, which abound at Castle Pines.

#5 Long par four uphill with a backstop.  Play left off the tee towards the bunkers for a better angle.  Collection of bunkers short and right of the green to protect certain pins.

#9 and #10 Won't go into the details, but they are both good par fours in my book.

#11 Beautiful downhill tee shot with a creek coming into play short.  Testing hole for the pros when the pin was short left.

#12 Good par four with a pond nestled up to the left side of the green.  Beautiful hole, and one of the more difficult on the course for the pros.

I won't go on any further, but the rest of the course is pretty good as well.

I do agree with Tom that the collection bunker was overused at Castle Pines.

I just don't see how you can look at the course and say there are only two good holes, and "nice" homes.  Just don't see it....
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2007, 12:18:49 PM »
In light of what has transpired in the last couple of days, I guess it is only appropriate that the flag is at half mast in the image below of hole #18. If the truth be known, this was shot the week after 911......had the plane to myself, nobody was flying.

Aidan.



#8



#12



#11



#15


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2007, 12:38:29 PM »
great as usual Aidan!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2007, 12:51:39 PM »
I just don't see how you can look at the course and say there are only two good holes, and "nice" homes.  Just don't see it....

I have different standards/opinions?  I've played a lot and I've played it a lot, I really like those two holes.  And the homes are really nice.  Do you think it is one of America's top 100 courses?




I do think it is one of America's top 100 courses, and it consistently gets ranked that way by most major publications.

I will admit, I have never PLAYED Castle Pines, but have walked it over 40 times when helping with the International.

I have not played nearly as many of the "great" courses as many have who frequent this site, and my thoughts may de different if I had.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2007, 02:52:56 PM »
I just don't see how you can look at the course and say there are only two good holes, and "nice" homes.  Just don't see it....

I have different standards/opinions?  I've played a lot and I've played it a lot, I really like those two holes.  And the homes are really nice.  Do you think it is one of America's top 100 courses?




BillV and Scott S,

I've played Castle Pines GC many times. I think it has a number of very fine holes  (certainly more than two). The stretch between 8-10 is terrific, with 10 a world class hole IMO. The green at the par 5 8th has been improved over the years with a number of excellent pin positions now and a number of options posed as to how to play the hole. I think a couple of the shorter holes, 2 and 15, are very underrated. They require a lot of precision.

There are some holes I don't like, including #13 Bill--I am not crazy about what they've done with the green (probably since you played it)--and the par 5 14th, with the newish lake greenside left eliminating options for most players. I also agree that the collection bunkers are a bit much.

Top 100? I don't think so, but hey it's a fine golf course and always a great place to play with the best staff and clubhouse I've experienced. Doak 7 IMO.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2007, 03:35:42 PM »
Doug

You must be a disciple of RTJ Sr. re:#10 CPGC.  Your classic hard par and easy bogey. Can't give it world class, nor even my #3 favorite on the course.  #9 has never done it for me, but #8 is probably the best on the course.  Aiden's photo does not even really do it justice. Sad to hear #13's changed, the green is what worked well, what did they do, make a kick-up on the back right?

Gentlemen of CO, I do realize that I am going for the groin criticizing the sacred Nicklaus Cow of CO, it certainly has "National" braggin' rights, sorry.  

BillV,

I agree #10 is a challenging hole. It requires two very good shots but i don't think that's unfair or uncalled for.

I don't think folks out here bestow sacred status on Castle Pines GC. They are a bit more sensitive about
comments on Cherry Hills CC, however.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 03:36:05 PM by Doug Wright »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2007, 11:18:13 PM »
Come on , you cant have Professional Golfers playing at altitude nowadays .  ::)

.....PGA players have long spoken of the difficultly in adjusting to a golf ball traveling farther in Colorado's thin air, which then plays havoc with their games when they return to sea-level events.
http://www.denverpost.com/sportscolumnists/ci_5180288
« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 09:54:20 PM by Brian_Ewen »

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2007, 09:24:17 AM »
Come on , you cant have Professional Golfers playing at altitude nowadays .

.....PGA players have long spoken of the difficultly in adjusting to a golf ball traveling farther in Colorado's thin air, which then plays havoc with their games when they return to sea-level events.
http://www.denverpost.com/sportscolumnists/ci_5180288


I don't agree with this at all.  I have walked with about 40 groups at the International and they have said, almost to a man, that it isn't that difficult.  Simply add about 10% and go.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2007, 10:40:47 AM »
They (the PGA Tour) want to move the tournament to a new venue.

Washington area was mentioned in the NYTimes.

Anyone has a guess which club there would host it?

>>PEBBLE BEACH, Calif. (AP) -- The PGA Tour has narrowed it search to four cities to replace the International, and commissioner Tim Finchem said Friday that a return to Washington likely would be the first choice if all options were equal.

The other cities being considered for the Fourth of July spot on the schedule are Portland, Ore., Minneapolis and another market he declined to identify that ''just came across the tracks.''

Finchem said he was surprised by the amount of interest from potential sponsors and cities, which included phone calls from mayors, over filling the void when the International decided to cancel the tournament July 5-8 outside Denver.

''We are working forward on a three-city, and possibly four-city review, of trying by next week to get aligned in each of those areas where to play, what the sponsorship structure would be and how the tournament would work in those different communities from a Fourth of July standpoint,'' he said in a telephone interview.

''When we get done and we're ready to prioritize, if all is about equal and Washington was one of them, we would probably prioritize Washington because we know it's a great time with the Fourth of July ... and it would be nice to have members of Congress involved.''

Finchem said Congress has been supportive of The First Tee, a program aimed at getting kids involved with golf.

Depending on how quickly the tour can study its best options, a decision could come by the end of the month.

The International, which used a modified Stableford scoring system at Castle Pines, announced Thursday that it would no longer be part of the PGA Tour schedule. Tournament founder Jack Vickers said he could not find a sponsor willing to pay some $8 million a year for a holiday week and an event that Tiger Woods doesn't play.

Woods has not played the International since 1999, and gave no indication that was going to change with a new date. The International had been played in August.

''On the one hand, the Tour's asking for a new five- or six-year commitment and you've got a one-man show out there right now that is the big difference,'' Vickers said Thursday.

Finchem disagreed. He said if that were true, ''we would have a schedule of 18 events.''

''That's just not the case,'' Finchem said. ''When Tiger Woods plays, more people watch on TV and more tickets are sold. When he doesn't play, a lot of tickets are sold, a lot of money is raised for charity and our TV numbers are solid for the value of a sponsor.''

Woods has never played in the Washington market except for the Presidents Cup in 2000 and 2005, and the U.S. Open in 1997 at Congressional.

The nation's capital lost its PGA Tour event last year when title sponsor Booz Allen declined to renew its deal after getting knocked out of the prime, FedExCup portion of the schedule. The tournament moved to the TPC Avenel in 1987 and was played there every year but 2005.

Finchem said if Washington was the Fourth of July choice, Avenel would not be ready until 2009 because of planned renovations, and even then he would not guarantee a tournament would return there.

''When you get past '07, there are probably three or four good options where to play,'' he said. ''How many are available to us in '07, we're not quite certain, although it looks like we have some good options.

Asked whether Congressional was one of them, Finchem said the tour has not contacted any clubs in the area.

He said there was precedent for staging a tournament in a short period of time. The tour announced the creation of the Presidents Cup in May 1994, and it was held that September at the Robert Trent Jones Golf Club in northern Virginia.<<

...another market he declined to identify that ''just came across the tracks.''....

I am wondering whether this is Liberty National.

4th of July, fireworks over the Statue, views, all that...


« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 01:37:20 PM by Voytek Wilczak »

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:International folding - now
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2007, 12:18:08 PM »
I suppose driving distances on Tour may come down slightly because of this unfortunate news.

TK

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