[Patrick_Mucci]

1 and 2 at Garden City. I love the first hole there.

Glenn,

When the greens are firm & fast and the prevailing winds are up, those easy little holes can turn on you and ruin a round before you're out of the gate.

# 6 at NGLA is a wonderful hole.

[mike_beene]

How long is 6 at Plantation?

[Scott Szabo]

10 at Riviera anyone? I've made 2 and 6 there on the same day to the same pin. I actually saw that happen in the same group on the 12th at Ballyneal last summer. I lost a ball left in the high stuff and Garrett the Assistant Pro made a 50 ft. putt for 2.

Have heard rumors about Garrett's length.  It must be ridiculous if he reached #12 off tee, no matter what the wind was doing.

Wonder if Mr. Doak ever thought about this being a drivable hole when he designed it!

Scott

[Scott Szabo]

Hmmmm.... I don't think of 18 PB or 7 Sand Hills as easy golf holes.  The former has hazard left and OB right, the latter has a killer bunker short of the green, which is raised and rejects mis-struck pitch shots like chicks rejected me in college.

 

I get what you guys are trying to say - these are great holes that are also birdie holes - but TOC has basically no trouble other than the OB right, which is VERY easy to avoid given the 100+ yard fairway.

I'd like to hear about a great hole that has no or little chance for penalty strokes and still goes under "easy" and is still great.

Huck,

Since you didn't like my choice of hole #7 at Sand Hills, how about #12?  This is more in line with the follow up that Max ran regarding 400 yard plus holes.

Fairway is at least 90 yards wide, but plays much smaller due to the dropoffs on each side.  The green is about as flat a green as you'll find at Sand Hills.  

I would consider this a birdie hole with little or no chance of penalty strokes.

Scott

[Steve Lapper]

Par 3's:

#10 Friars Head (Huge,yet deceptively hidden green)
#15 Cypress Point (Visually distracting, but plenty of room)
#15 Kingston Heath or #4 Royal Melbourne West

Par 4's:

#9 Maidstone (beautiful, yet relatively benign)
#4 Spyglass (barring a 30+mph Northerly)
#16 Oakland Hills (great hole??, but others think so??)
#18 Olympic (save for greenspeed's above 12!)

Par 5's:

#18 Pebble Beach (conservative play gets easily rewarded)
#16 Plainfield (drive, hybrid, wedge, wide enough for anyone)
#4  Bethpage Black (w/out a heroic reach, not that tough)


Just a few that come to mind.

[Glenn Spencer]

1 and 2 at Garden City. I love the first hole there.

Glenn,

When the greens are firm & fast and the prevailing winds are up, those easy little holes can turn on you and ruin a round before you're out of the gate.

# 6 at NGLA is a wonderful hole.

Patrick,

I can see that. I guess I am referring more to the yardage and what one would think before they played them. I loved the holes and was glad to start with two safe pars.

[Jim Nugent]

Average score on 13 at ANGC, for all Masters, is 4.80 strokes.  That makes it the 2nd-easiest hole there against par, right behind #15, which has an average of 4.79.  

Don't know if it's great, but it is pretty famous: 18th at Baltusrol.  From the SportsNetwork.com, on the 2005 PGA held there:  "The easiest hole in Thursday's first round was the par-five 18th, which played to an average of 4.570."

[Jim Nugent]

Hijacking this topic a bit, though still related: what are some easy great courses?  Just saw this blurb about Ernie Els and Royal Melbourne Composite:

"Royal Melbourne's composite course has long been regarded as among the top handful of golf courses in the world but Ernie Els slayed her with a career-best 60 on the opening day of the Heineken Classic yesterday."

"He had 11 birdies and an eagle for the day and only needed his driver four times. But he would not accept the conventional wisdom that the old courses - St Andrews is another - have become too easy for the modern players, aided as they are by advances in technology.

"The defence it has is the greens," he said. "If they're firm and the wind's up, it's different. This is a classic course. They don't have to do anything. Maybe if they put some extra yardage in a few holes but they don't have to tinker with it."

This question about "easy" depends on what players we're talking about: pro's, low-handicappers, or average amateurs.  For average players, no great courses are easy, and few if any great holes.  

[Michael Robin]

Scott -

Another Garrett story. I'm standing on the 9th green at Ballyneal when a ball flies between John Kirk's and my head, takes one bounce on the green and lands in the back bunker. We looked to the group behind and they were on the tee. It was blowing pretty good down wind, but this was about 360 uphill on the fly and probably would have rolled out above the 425 mark. Mr. Adam Clayman I think could verify this as he was Garrett's partner that day. I also played with him when he drove it into a bush over the 14th green too. This guy is definately the longest driver of the ball that I've seen!

[Adam Clayman]

Confirmed.

As usual Garret was over swinging. By the ninth tee, I finally told him to put the 250 swing on it, and thats when he drove into into the back bunker, over the lovely Spencer Wisdom's head.

I can attest it wasn't the most fun shot I've seen on that hole. Neil Regan drove his ball to the downslope coming off the rightside LZ bunker. He turned to me, asked if it would be ok if he putted it. I said I was hoping you'd say that. Well, Neil pulled the heavy putter and made a mighty whack to traverse the approx. 107 yards. He knew the collars had been top dressed, so I think he gave it just a bit more then he normally would. I gauged the result going apprx. 142y into the back bunker.

Max, While I haven't read all the reponse yet, I'd say peoples definition of easy is critical to answering your thought provoking post. Like Michael, I immediately thought of Riv's 10th and Ballyneal's 7th.

All holes are easy with at least one fine shot.

[Jim Nugent]

You Ballyneal guys -- what does Garret shoot there?  

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd propose Pebble #7; personal shotmaking leaves a bit to be desired here, but a decent swing normally will yield a 2 or 3.

I agree with Jon here, #7 gets my vote

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmm.... I don't think of 18 PB or 7 Sand Hills as easy golf holes.  The former has hazard left and OB right, the latter has a killer bunker short of the green, which is raised and rejects mis-struck pitch shots like chicks rejected me in college.

 

I get what you guys are trying to say - these are great holes that are also birdie holes - but TOC has basically no trouble other than the OB right, which is VERY easy to avoid given the 100+ yard fairway.

I'd like to hear about a great hole that has no or little chance for penalty strokes and still goes under "easy" and is still great.

Huck,

Since you didn't like my choice of hole #7 at Sand Hills, how about #12?  This is more in line with the follow up that Max ran regarding 400 yard plus holes.

Fairway is at least 90 yards wide, but plays much smaller due to the dropoffs on each side.  The green is about as flat a green as you'll find at Sand Hills.  

I would consider this a birdie hole with little or no chance of penalty strokes.

Scott

I'd say you nailed this, Scott.  12 is a perfect candidate for this topic.  Some would call it easy, few could not call it great.  Well done.

[Philippe Binette]

I'm surprised that Tom Doak mentionned the 12th at The Old Course as easy... it's one of the hardest 80 yards shot on I've seen if the pin is right and you're not accepting a 40 footer by playing left.

With today's equipment, the short par fives of Royal Melbourne are easier to tackle than before if you're not trying too hard (not trying to eagle them) by playing safe of the tee, lay up 20 yards short of the green, put it to 10-15 feet and at worse making 5


 

[Sean Leary]

Messrs Kirk, Robin, Clayman, Caulkins et al,

Obviously you need to pair young Garrett with fellow Ballyneal member Ryan Beaty and see what happens.  Mr. Beaty is by far the longest I have ever seen (again, when he isn't overswinging).  

[D_Malley]

i think the only hole at merion that could fit this thread would be #10.  also in the philly area #1 at phila cc comes to mind.

[archie_struthers]

 


Although I love all the holes at PIne Valley was trying to think is 12 great?  and (2) is it easy

Yes to both questions, I'm on board!

# 18 at Pebble probably fits also.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The answer is:

# 2 at NGLA

[Tom Huckaby]

The answer is:

# 2 at NGLA

Agreed... except.. he wants the hole to be over 400 yards.

[Michael Robin]

Jim Nugent - The day I played with Garett, he shot 78. I shot 70 .

[Matthew Hunt]

12 at RCD

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,
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After reading about the 50 Toughest Courses, I could not help but wonder, and perhaps this is my own misperception, why so many of the "great" holes are more often than not very tough holes as well. It seems it is rare to have a great, easy hole. There are notable exceptions like #13 at ANGC, #18 at The Old Course, #18 at NGLA or (dare I say) #7 at Ballyneal.

But it seems that for every one like this, there are 5 holes like #5 (or any of them!) at Pine Valley or #16 or 17 at Cypress where a par is to be savored like a birdie elsewhere.

Is it harder to create a truly great, easy hole? If so, what is the best?

[TEPaul]

One of the best holes I've seen that's not that hard (apparently if you use your head) is the 14th at Sand Hills.

The second shot on that hole probably has the most balanced set of options for a player like me I have ever seen anywhere.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick Mucci:

Once again your failure to read beyond what you want to read dooms you.  Here is response #8, from the post originator, Max C:



I feel the urge to re-phrase my question.
Is it possible to have a "great" hole that is not short (in relation to its par) but gives the golfer a realistic hope of making a birdie? Nearly each hole that has been mentioned should probably not be characterized as easy. There are likely as many double bogeys as birdies on most of them. But nearly all of them are best described as short.

I guess my next revision will be: is there such a thing as a great hole, where birdie is realistic that is a 400+ yard par 4? Do any qualify under this criteria?


Care to rephrase that large question mark?

I am DYING to know how you're gonna explain away this one.  The pressure's on, and your hard-earned reputation of never admitting you're wrong is at stake.

 

[Pete Garvey]

Without a doubt, #6 at Seminole........A great easy hole!  A true example of a Ross short 4 par......And, Hogan loved this hole too.....................

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