[Max Caulkins]

After reading about the 50 Toughest Courses, I could not help but wonder, and perhaps this is my own misperception, why so many of the "great" holes are more often than not very tough holes as well. It seems it is rare to have a great, easy hole. There are notable exceptions like #13 at ANGC, #18 at The Old Course, #18 at NGLA or (dare I say) #7 at Ballyneal. But it seems that for every one like this, there are 5 holes like #5 (or any of them!) at Pine Valley or #16 or 17 at Cypress where a par is to be savored like a birdie elsewhere.

Is it harder to create a truly great, easy hole? If so, what is the best?

[Tom Huckaby]

Max - I think the truly great holes in this vein LOOK easy and SEEM easy, but then you look at your score and wonder what the heck happened.

#18 TOC is the poster hole for this.

[Kalen Braley]

I'd toss the 18th at Pebble into the hat. For all the pub it gets, not too tough to have a wedge into that green for a bird.

[Scott Szabo]

Let's toss #7 at Sand Hills into the mix.

[Tom_Doak]

Max:

Lots of good players automatically identify the "best" hole on a course as the toughest par-4, so that's a start.

To me, a truly great hole has to reward great play and not just good play ... and the only way to reward great play is a stroke at a time.  That's why everyone likes what are called "half-par" holes on this board, whether they dole out a large number of birdies and pars, or pars and bogeys.  But, I don't think great holes have to dole out double bogeys.

Other great, easy holes for me:

#13 at North Berwick
#12 at St. Andrews
the Dell at Lahinch (I guess it's #5 now, I still want to call it #6)

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmm.... I don't think of 18 PB or 7 Sand Hills as easy golf holes.  The former has hazard left and OB right, the latter has a killer bunker short of the green, which is raised and rejects mis-struck pitch shots like chicks rejected me in college.

 

I get what you guys are trying to say - these are great holes that are also birdie holes - but TOC has basically no trouble other than the OB right, which is VERY easy to avoid given the 100+ yard fairway.

I'd like to hear about a great hole that has no or little chance for penalty strokes and still goes under "easy" and is still great.

[Sean Leary]

12 at Pine Valley
17 at Prairie Dunes
11 at Merion
6 and 17 at Pacific Dunes

[Jon Spaulding]

I'd propose Pebble #7; personal shotmaking leaves a bit to be desired here, but a decent swing normally will yield a 2 or 3.

[Max Caulkins]

I feel the urge to re-phrase my question.
Is it possible to have a "great" hole that is not short (in relation to its par) but gives the golfer a realistic hope of making a birdie? Nearly each hole that has been mentioned should probably not be characterized as easy. There are likely as many double bogeys as birdies on most of them. But nearly all of them are best described as short.

I guess my next revision will be: is there such a thing as a great hole, where birdie is realistic that is a 400+ yard par 4? Do any qualify under this criteria?

[SPDB]

Sean:

You think 11 at Merion is easy?

Max:

Tom Doak's inclusion of 13 at N. Berwick and the Dell at Lahinch points up an interesting criteria. Often holes are considered great because they are unique or innovative.  That is, they are great because there is nothing in the world quite like it. No one would argue that the approach over the stone wall to NB 13 or the Dell greensite are anything but one of a kind. In my opinion, the difficulty of these holes is an after thought. They thrill because they are unique. In this vein, I would add #17 at Prestwick to this list.  

I obviously can't speak from experience, but it seems that it would be far easier to create a difficult hole than it would be to create a truly innovative one.  

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

If you think 17 at Pacific Dunes is easy, you obviously haven't been there in the summer -- and your home side could have used you at the Curtis Cup!

Max:

I'm trying to think of a 400+ yard par 4 that I would term "easy" and "great", and nothing is coming to mind.  Usually once you get above that length a golf course designer is thinking that it should be one of his more testing holes.  The first at Royal Melbourne West is a relatively simple 430-yard par-4 (eighty yards wide, one bunker greenside) and I think it's a good opener, but don't know that anyone would call it a great hole.

Maybe the 16th at National -- a lot of people would call that a great hole, if your drive deviates from the proper line (to either side) you are hitting the second shot from a deep hole in the ground, but it's a punchbowl green so as long as you've got reasonable length it is a pretty easy hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Agreed Tom, in the summer with a 15 MPH side wind going from left to right on #17 at PD, its a lot of work just to get your par.

[rjsimper]

I believe 13 at Rustic Canyon is a great hole.  To me, it is the best hole on the course with a great green complex that, while cool, is not "innovative".   I have no idea what the yardage is, but I'd guess around 520-530.

It is neither short nor "easy".  I'd say given a crop of players who regularly make 1-2 birdies per round, you will find far more birdies than doubles here.

[Michael Robin]

10 at Riviera anyone? I've made 2 and 6 there on the same day to the same pin. I actually saw that happen in the same group on the 12th at Ballyneal last summer. I lost a ball left in the high stuff and Garrett the Assistant Pro made a 50 ft. putt for 2.

Riv's 10th if played properly can be easy, but any variance in terms of a bad strategic approach or poor execution and you pay the price. Similar with 7 & 12 at Ballyneal.

Others that come to mind: The 6th at Pacific, 9th at Cypress Point, 7th at Pebble, 2nd at St Andrews Beach.

[Mark_F]

4 Royal Melbourne West - maybe spectacular, but not much else.

15 Kingston Heath - looks a lot more intimidating than it really is.

[Kalen Braley]

I think the 13th at Augusta National could be on the list.  While the drive is not especially easy, you see a ton of eagles on that hole during the Masters.

How long does that hole play for the members?

[Joel_Stewart]

I've played the 17th at pacific Dunes maybe 5 times and never made a par.  Its one of the hardest holes on the course.

I would agree with the 7th at Pebble Beach and possibly the 15th at Cypress Point as well not counting extreme weather.

[Michael Robin]

How about the 1st at Riviera? A great opening tee shot with everybody watching that rewards good execution with a go at the green in two. You can also hook it OB. Saw Payne Stewart start the '83 PGA with a 10 on that hole after his first three tee shots sailed out of bounds. Palmer called it the greatest starting hole in golf, but it's easy for the higher handicap member to make a 5 or sometimes even a 4.

I also agree with Joel re 17 at Pacific. Hardest damn hole on the course for me too. I think I'm 2 for 15 in terms of making par on that great hole.

[Glenn Spencer]

1 and 2 at Garden City. I love the first hole there.

[Brad Tufts]

#18 at Kapalua Plantation is a great hole, but the question really is whether you are going to make birdie or eagle....par is ultimately losing a shot to the field, so to speak...

[Sean Leary]

Sean:

If you think 17 at Pacific Dunes is easy, you obviously haven't been there in the summer -- and your home side could have used you at the Curtis Cup!

Max:

I'm trying to think of a 400+ yard par 4 that I would term "easy" and "great", and nothing is coming to mind.  Usually once you get above that length a golf course designer is thinking that it should be one of his more testing holes.  The first at Royal Melbourne West is a relatively simple 430-yard par-4 (eighty yards wide, one bunker greenside) and I think it's a good opener, but don't know that anyone would call it a great hole.

Maybe the 16th at National -- a lot of people would call that a great hole, if your drive deviates from the proper line (to either side) you are hitting the second shot from a deep hole in the ground, but it's a punchbowl green so as long as you've got reasonable length it is a pretty easy hole.

Tom,

Oops, I was thinking 16 when I wrote 17.  Obviously it depends on the wind there, but downwind being drivable but also can make a number of scores.

[Sean Leary]

Sean:

You think 11 at Merion is easy?

   

I am having a bad day with this.  Meant 10.

[Phil Benedict]

Is the 18th at TOC great?  Easy?  It's certainly a half par hole for high level players.

Interesting conundrum about whether there are any 400 yard plus par 4's that are easy and great.

[Guy Phelan]

12 at Pine Valley
17 at Prairie Dunes
11 at Merion
6 and 17 at Pacific Dunes

Sean,

No way I can agree with #11 at Merion as being "easy!' Way too many doubles I have seen there from accomplished players.

Guy

[SPDB]

See for me, if we're discussing easy great holes at Merion, I have to go with 16. Its a great design, though not terribly difficult. The incorporation of the quarry area is sublime and the carry over it to the green makes it feel more heroic than it actually is.

Its also been vastly improved by the tree clearing.

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