[Tommy_Naccarato]

I came across a hole which grasped some great interest. the architect for the time being will remain a secret--that doesn't matter---YET! However the principles of the hole itself are interesting. Judging by the aerial, the property is somewhat flat going slightly downhill with a steep drop-off into a creek-like arroyo that is filled with beautiful oak trees. It's a short, two-shot hole.

The right side of the hole is also interesting, although not the full part of the strategy. It's an airfield that plays O.B.. The green itself is bunkerless with a slight slope towards the left side, so you can feed the ball into this green from the right side.

With this description, along with the drawing shown here, what do you think of the strategy of this golf hole? How would you play it with each of your OWN individual games?

[Eric Franzen]

At first glance:
I would lay up a bit to the right, short of the bunkers.
No point in flirting with the left side, as I see it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Eric,

After looking at the hole closer, figure it's going to be a mid-length par 4

Let me further clarify, that the hole placement of the drive is foremost in dealing with the green itself, which in this case may have a mound short right or right in the green itself* that would make it much more difficult in getting to the green in two from the right side. the better placement on the drive would require you to get it to sit right in front of that left side bunker, thus eliminating the severity of the mound on the second shot.

*I think this should give sort of a hint that I have not seen the hole--persay--but have been there and know the property pretty well.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Arb's & Eric,
Here's the newer drawing. One of the reasons why I am doing this is I'm figuring out the hole myself! Here's the update:



However Arb's you are geting close!  There is a reason why, and I'll explain latter as we go along! Actually I see the 16th and parts of the 17th of the Old Course here. As far as the last bunker, well, I can see it's purpose. Why else would anyone ever want to try to play right if it's not there? In other words, I thnk the lack of width on the left side has everything to do with the mound short or into the right side of the green. . If your going to be taking it that direction, you better be accurate, otherwise play right and deal witht he mound on the next shot.

[RT]

Tommy,

Is that the 15th at Saunton East?  Canny resemblance.

RT

[Tommy_Naccarato]

RT,
It actually isn't, but whose to say that a certain American architect didin't get his inspiration from Saunton?!?!?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, Given the site, there was just enough width to make it interesting attempt. If the Tiger failed in getting it past the bunker or ended up in it, he paid the price. Mind you this particular architect thinks highly of both Tigers and Rabbits.

Ironically, this architect calls his bunkers "Sand Traps." That's a term we never really hear much any more because of the negative connotation, so he is thinking strategy in negotiating these traps.

I'm hoping all of the architects on GCA get involved in this one and giving their opinion.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Arbs,
I could probably join you in that cause, only if it's the ridding of unneccessary eye candy. Count me in the Max Behr school, although I think of natural sandy wastes ala Sunningdale, something all of golf needs.

There is nothing like Heath....

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The Arbs Version

[Kyle Harris]

Nommy Talkers,

Is that OB anything that would block line of sight? A wall? Imitation Railroad Sheds? Tony Banks's CP 70 Sequencer?

[RT]

Sean,

Think I got the course right, am sure, but hole number not right.  Could well be 11.  called "Field".  NAF, help me out!

RT

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tommy Boy - I'd be too afraid to do anything but putt from tee to green!

Could this be the 11th, 12th (can't remember which) at East Hampton??

jaycee

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

I've seen that drawing before, but I never was sure what hole it was supposed to be ... a couple came to mind but none of them was quite right.

[TEPaul]

Jonathan:

No, it's not the 12th at Easthampton. That hole has a straight line OB all the way down the right side and it's not an airport its a disgruntled landowner who conducted an on-going property line dispute. Plus the 12th at Easthampton was hugely wide or used to be if the landowner got his way.

That hole drawing and the description of how it plays looks like a pretty cool over-all strategic balance given what must have looked, at first, like a bad situation on the right. But a hole like that needs to be analyzed on the ground and not just on a two dimensional drawing.

[SPDB]

Tommy:

I don't like this hole as a mid-length. I would make the following revisions:

1. Shorten to make a potentially drivable hole.
2. Move tee slightly right so that driving the green crosses the corner OB
3. Move the greenside mound to the front left, to reward the riskier player who attempts to drive the green get the ball to the hole from the tee. Also somewhat punishes the player who lays up short left.
4. Extend the left bunker
5. I would keep the pair of bunkers and:

• build up their rear so as to make the shot blind for the faint of heart who lays up to the wide part in the right.
• extend the left bunker of these two toward the tee and to the left to make more of a throat and make the left layup more fearsome.

[TEPaul]

Interesting comments;

On second thought if the hole in the drawing is such that if one lays up in front of those bunkers in front of the perpindicular OB line and is only left with a short iron from there I think the balance with the higher risk option of driving farther down along side the in-line OB begins to get distorted and the higher risk option begins to lose its temptation. But if laying up in front of those two bunkers and the perpindicular OB line leaves a pretty long shot then the balance with the higher risk option is improved. Obviously that may require altering a few things to create this equation.

There's a hole like this at the Creek Club. The features are there but they're sort of in the wrong place to have any effect on particularly a long player's thinking from the tee.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tommy:

I don't like this hole as a mid-length. I would make the following revisions:

1. Shorten to make a potentially drivable hole.
2. Move tee slightly right so that driving the green crosses the corner OB
3. Move the greenside mound to the front left, to reward the riskier player who attempts to drive the green get the ball to the hole from the tee. Also somewhat punishes the player who lays up short left.
4. Extend the left bunker
5. I would keep the pair of bunkers and:

• build up their rear so as to make the shot blind for the faint of heart who lays up to the wide part in the right.
• extend the left bunker of these two toward the tee and to the left to make more of a throat and make the left layup more fearsome.

Sean, Not sure if this is exact, just let me know and I'll make the changes... My take: Sean's version takes an interesting turn as it becomes a somewhat minaturized Road Hole. Interesting concept other then the need to make it blind. Don't get me wrong, I lov an occasional blind shot now and then, but nothing can tempt a player more, urge him for a try at the green then seeing O.B. stare him in the face. But then again there is the sheer fear of not knowing what you hitting to or where you've hit it--no rail sheds to know what point you have to hit it over. (Given this site, think restraint as far as land forms)

You'll originally see that I thought this hole might be a short four to begin with, when actually I think it's more mid length. I think this also show the benefits of seeing the property in question. We'll get to that soon!

Tom Doak is right though, he has seen the hole before as I know he's flipped a page or two! (hint-hint!) ;)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And no, it isn't the Creek Club or Easthampton. If it was Easthampton, I would have probably included an Alec Baldwin hint in there somewhere!

[Kirk Gill]

Even with all the caveats, I would still play to the right side of the fairway, short of the bunkers (or the former bunkers, in Sean's version). I tend to hit a fade that, if I lose it, goes well right of target. To control my game, I would find that, despite the mound right of the green and the right to left downhill slope, a shot from the right side of the fairway would remove some of the danger of losing a fade and ending up OB, if that makes sense. I'd rather chip back up the hill to the pin than have to take a penalty.

[TEPaul]

I shouldn't say there's a hole like this at The Creek Club because there isn't. What I meant was if the layup option on this hole produces a really short approach (like a short iron) then that can almost completely diminish the temptation of a higher risk option off the tee. There is a hole like that at Creek.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

So what do you think of this particular hole?

[SPDB]

TEPaul -
What hole at the Creek?

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

The first hole.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Arbs,
Those trees on the right block the superintendents building... It's fairly wide over there meaning lots of room for a safe lay-up.

[Michael Robin]

Hey Tommy -

If this hole were a par 5 it sure would look a lot like the 18th at Rancho Park, the site of Palmer's infamous 12 in the LA Open.

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