[archie_struthers]

 

When I first arrived for work at Pine Vallley in the mid 70's I was just amazed at all the things going on at the golf course. Huge sprawling fairways, elevation changes I'd never seen in NJ. bunkers everywhere, even in the woods, and the most remarkable set of green I had ever seen!!!!  The people,  Eb Steiniger ( legendary superintendent), Tommy Elder (my boss) caddiemaster,    Mr Brown (potentate) Sly, Mel, Cliff (inside guys) Big Ed (right arm to the potentate lol) and more characters in the caddy yard than you could ever imagine (Carmen, Cappie, Louie, Old Man Louie, Elmer, Tex, Broadway  et al ).

But first and foremost this is an architecture site, so if I'm taking a trip down memory lane it should have some architectural content, right ?

 So let's talk about the DA, or Devil's Asshole as it is formally known. This formidable bunker has caused much lamentation and laughter over the years, but who out there remembers it before me, when putting into it was not an unusual occurrence?

The "lay of the land greens' thread showed a magnificent bunker at Myopia that looks very similar to the mouth of the DA, and got me thinking about this magnificent orifice, so lets talk about the old days and the strategy employed to avoid it!.

[archie_struthers]

 

Oops, forgot!  Maintenance. Putting into the bunker was very easy until what year?

Should PV return to the old maintenance practices that allowed same. Humbly submitted of course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Arch,
These are the types of posts that are soley missed on this website. It literally brings me back into the heydays of Golf Club Atlas... I hope the future brings us right back to these types of posts, and I look forward to them.

Yes, The DA should be played as a threat from the putting surface. I think that's the only way it should be played. I'll also have you know that I'm not afraid of the DA. I think if one doesn't experience it then they are missing out on one of the greatest experiences in their life. While I did come up somewhat short, and my playing "partner" kicked it in there for me, I still think that's one of my very favorite moments in golf, the look on my caddie's face when I told him I didn't come here to play for a birdie that I was there to take on that Asshole..... His reaction to me will ever be enduring in my mind.

[Jeff Doerr]

Archie,

What has changed that has taken the putting fear out of play?


Like many, I've never played PV. My putting into the XXXXXXX experience occured at #15 at Bandon Dunes. Front pin, huge tail wind, and a ball that ended up well back on the green. My lag put had no lag in it as it slowly tumbled past the hole and towards the ledge...

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
One of our favorite hazards for sure.  In our bunkers book, we show an early photo of the hole and the famous bunker.  It is hard to tell in that small photo, but in the enlarged one, it looks like that back then, it might have been hard to "putt into the bunker".  But regardless, we stated that it is this nasty, menacing, dirty, unpleasant, foul, mean, horrid, vile, ungracious, loathsome, beastly, and hideous quality that makes it so beloved and enjoyed.  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Below is a photo from 1914 of the 10th at Pine Valley pre-Devil's A-hole.  I'm not sure exactly when it was put in or by whom.  I've got some other early photos of the bunker and I'll try to post them.

The slope is evident and for a time the grass was closely cropped that enabled balls to easily go into the DA.  I'm looking for the photos...

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Nice photo.  I just looked at the photo in Thomas' book and in that one you can clearly see that you could putt into the bunker.  The evolution of the bunker (like many of the great ones) is fascinating.
Mark

[Guy Phelan]

When I first arrived for work at Pine Vallley in the mid 70's I was just amazed at all the things going on at the golf course. Huge sprawling fairways, elevation changes I'd never seen in NJ. bunkers everywhere, even in the woods, and the most remarkable set of green I had ever seen!!!!  The people,  Eb Steiniger ( legendary superintendent), Tommy Elder (my boss) caddiemaster,    Mr Brown (potentate) Sly, Mel, Cliff (inside guys) Big Ed (right arm to the potentate lol) and more characters in the caddy yard than you could ever imagine (Carmen, Cappie, Louie, Old Man Louie, Elmer, Tex, Broadway  et al ).

But first and foremost this is an architecture site, so if I'm taking a trip down memory lane it should have some architectural content, right ?

 So let's talk about the DA, or Devil's Asshole as it is formally known. This formidable bunker has caused much lamentation and laughter over the years, but who out there remembers it before me, when putting into it was not an unusual occurrence?

The "lay of the land greens' thread showed a magnificent bunker at Myopia that looks very similar to the mouth of the DA, and got me thinking about this magnificent orifice, so lets talk about the old days and the strategy employed to avoid it!.

Archie,

I did it at the "Postage Stamp" at Troon...embarrassing, yes, greatest three of my memory, yes! Over there the collection bunkers are abundant and remain even in today's environment and probably will for some time. However, bunkers like the DA have been altered to "save face" for many and allow the rounds to keep moving...Personally, I would like it to come back!

Guy

[Willie_Dow]

Archie, I believe the green was changed about eight or ten years ago, flattening out the slope which ran down to the bunker.  They also put in the second 8th green and flattened the 5th that year, I think.

[Sean_Tully]

Here is a link to some disscussion of the DA that I started a while ago. I have a link to some photos near the bottom.

Tully

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22380;start=msg419706#msg419706

[SPDB]

What's amazing is that the devils asshole is the ultimate distraction. People fixate on it, but there is trouble lurking everywhere. Over the years i have gotten the toughest lies imaginable on PV 10th, and i've never been in the DA. The trench bunkers on the left are, i think, by far the tougher test.

The toughest lie i had though was when i overcooked a wedge and it got hung up on the nearly vertical face on the front of the 18th teebox.

[TEPaul]

Archie;

The first appearance and the early evolution of the DA seems to remain something of a mystery.

Some say it just evolved from a depression or whatever in that area. Somehow I doubt that.

So when it was created or even by whom seems to be something of a mystery. Frankly I'd like to look through some of the photos again of the late teens or very early 1920s to determine when it first appeared and what it looked like early on.

But one thing we should all be aware of with the 10th hole is the entire fronting bunker on the left of it was changed pretty early on.

Originally the sand on that left fronting bunker was flashed almost to the level of the green surface. Obviously that was not going to work and it was changed to mostly grassed down.

We're not too sure when that happened but we suspect it may've been done by Flynn when the same problem was fixed on the fronting bunkers on #2 and #18 which also had sand flashed almost to the green surface which unfortunately caused collapsing too frequently.

These things may've been done in that phase in 1919 when basically the Wilsons of Merion and Flynn were brought in by Pine Valley to help finish of the 12-15th and bring 18 holes into play. Hugh Wilson basically became PV's Green Chairman at that time. All 18 holes were finally opened for play in the summer of 1920.

Later in the 1920s the course underwent a program that was referred to as "holding the course together". This was to prevent those massive areas of sand from shifting, bunker face collapsing and such. The real problem areas were the huge right bunker area on #6, the area in front of #10, and #2 and #18 fronting bunkers. These areas were sodded with more formal individual bunkers or terraced as they are today just to stabilize those areas.

So the first appearance and the evolution of the DA may always be something of a mystery.

My personal opinion on that hole is that it played better when the left bunker particularly far up into the green was really narrow basically almost preventing a swing, combined with something of a false front above the DA and a rougher bunker area to the right of the green. I also think the hole should never be longer than perhaps 150 yards at the very most. The new back tee should be removed in my opinion. The hole was designed to be and should be a very short iron to an incredibly intense green surround. I think it should simply be a matter of the golfer realizing he has to hit that green or potentially really pay a price for missing it anywhere around it. To me that's the entire essence of that hole and is what makes it really unique. I think it used to be more that way than it is now and should be returned to that intensity.

The DA is sort of central to that equation because it basically just enhances the effectivenes of all the surrounding bunkers as golfers will do most anything to avoid it.

I've played that hole maybe some hundreds of times and I must say I've never been in the DA but the fact it is there I have no doubt has made me miss that green in other areas.

It's a great feature and deserves to be world famous. It may be one of the greatest psychological features in golf and made more significant by the fact that it just may be the smallest too.

By the way, there were almost half a dozen greens at PV in the early days that were virtually islands surrounded by sand.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

The Feb 17, 1921 letter from the green committee to Howard Perrin, PVGC President mentioned the improvements suggested by Alison.  The ones the green committee felt should be made at once included a bunker at green on the 10th.  Do you think this might be the DA?  Of course, who knows how Alison or whomever suggested the bunker be built, maybe the soil was soft and the ground collapsed into the narrow deep pit it is today.  There was no Alison drawing of the 10th in the document collection you showed me unlike the other holes, what do you think?

[archie_struthers]

 


Wayne Morrison's old picture of 10 is very interesting, looks like it predated the DA.

I'm definitely thinking that the changes to the DA, specifically the addition of some soil to the top edge, must have occurred in the 60's or early 70's. If no one  here knows I'll make a few phone calls and find out.  Too bad I can't channel Mr. Shelley, who had a better memory at 85 than I did at 25. (lol)   As to the DA,I had many discussions with some of the older loopers about how much easier it had become over time, but I don't recall who changed it and when. As stated, I'm guessing it happened in the late 60's or early 70's. Maybe Craig Reinhardt and Mr. Eb ?  

The green speed increases under Dick Bator's tenure as superintendent no doubt would have made this feature increasingly terrifying, particularly at tournament time. For those of you who don't get what we're discussing for lack of visual accoutrement, perhaps someone would post a picture of the DA now and the Myioia bunker I alluded to earlier.

There at sometime was no lip , and subsequently a collar on the greenside of the DA to stop a ball from spinning back in on the tee shot, or actually putting in from above the hole. I'm trying to establish when the change occurred?  

Tommy Naccarato is too funny, he doesn't fear the DA!!!!

Only someone from the left coast could be so brave! LOL
I wouldn't even go near it for fear of bad karma!

On a related note, as difficult and scary the left bunker channel is on ten, there is a way out, unless you are unlucky! The DA is  IMHO more perilous !

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I don't know what the committee meant by that "bunker at green" that was in parentheses. It could've been that big flash faced front bunker, I guess.

But what Alison meant, I believe, was to take down the bank (or ridge) between the tee and the green that hid the fronting bunkers to some extent back then. Look at some of the very early photos of that hole from the tee and you can see there was an area on the walk to the green that was  higher than it is now.

"There was no Alison drawing of the 10th in the document collection you showed me unlike the other holes, what do you think?"

Alison only did drawings of the greens he recommended redesigning. Those included #6, #8, the creation of the right 9th, #11 and #17.

[wsmorrison]

Here's a photo that shows exactly what you are talking about.  Certainly the right side was much higher than today and obscured the right side of the green.  They sure did remove a lot of fill.

[TEPaul]

That's the one. 30-50 yards off the tee that path and that entire area no longer goes up, it goes down.

And look at that damn lone pine tree on the left there!  

[Mark_Fine]

This photo is not dated but is 1927 or earlier.

[Rob_Waldron]

Renovations which included major tree removal during the past few years have also re-established the long narrow "V" shaped bunker left of the green often referred to as the "Witch's Vagina"

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm definitely thinking that the changes to the DA, specifically the addition of some soil to the top edge, must have occurred in the 60's or early 70's.


They occured around the Walker Cup.

Previously, a ball hit onto the green, with spin, would back up
and find its way to the bottom of the DA.

Subsequently a lip was created vis a vis sod, I believe, and the rough between the DA and the green,

The top of the DA may have been altered to redirect the surface water away from the DA, rather than into it.

I prefered the more penal version and felt that there were other, more subtle ways of redirecting the surface water.[/color]

If no one  here knows I'll make a few phone calls and find out.  Too bad I can't channel Mr. Shelley, who had a better memory at 85 than I did at 25. (lol)  

As to the DA,I had many discussions with some of the older loopers about how much easier it had become over time, but I don't recall who changed it and when. As stated, I'm guessing it happened in the late 60's or early 70's. Maybe Craig Reinhardt and Mr. Eb ?  

See my comments above[/color]

The green speed increases under Dick Bator's tenure as superintendent no doubt would have made this feature increasingly terrifying, particularly at tournament time. For those of you who don't get what we're discussing for lack of visual accoutrement, perhaps someone would post a picture of the DA now and the Myioia bunker I alluded to earlier.

There at sometime was no lip , and subsequently a collar on the greenside of the DA to stop a ball from spinning back in on the tee shot, or actually putting in from above the hole. I'm trying to establish when the change occurred?  

Tommy Naccarato is too funny, he doesn't fear the DA!!!!

Only someone from the left coast could be so brave! LOL
I wouldn't even go near it for fear of bad karma!

In the OLDE days, it was like being in the bottom of an Ice Cream Cone.   Sometimes the best, if not the only play, was backwards.

In 1964-66, I can recall, like TN, putting a ball in the bunker and trying to get out.  On my first swing I reached the green, only to have the ball roll back into the bunker.  But now, there was a bigger problem.  Due to the conical shape of the bunker, balls went to the lowest point, which was where your footprints and excavation from the previous shot were.

Let the thrashing begin.... until you figured out to hit it backwards, toward the tee.

In addition to the water issue, I would imagine that less than superior golfers could have spent days trying to extracate themselves, which might have been another reason for its softening.[/color]

On a related note, as difficult and scary the left bunker channel is on ten, there is a way out, unless you are unlucky! The DA is  IMHO more perilous !

[James Bennett]

In 1964-66, I can recall, like TN, putting a ball in the bunker and trying to get out.  On my first swing I reached the green, only to have the ball roll back into the bunker.  But now, there was a bigger problem.  Due to the conical shape of the bunker, balls went to the lowest point, which was where your footprints and excavation from the previous shot were.

Let the thrashing begin.... until you figured out to hit it backwards, toward the tee.

Patrick (and Tommy)

If you putted into the bunker from the green, why didn't you take an unplayable lie and replay the putt as your 4th shot?  (I assume you putted your second into the bunker).  I can understand why in match-play you might try to take on the DA, but in stroke-play?

James B

[archie_struthers]

 
You know Pat , know you've got me twisted.  I'll call Bator and ask him tomorrow, I'm wondering if they rivetted the bunker in the late 70's , but I swear it was just reconstruction then.  Oh well, gotta take more fish oil!

Many times when someone would hit it in the DA in a tournament they immediately would declare it unplayable and play another from the tee, for fear of double digits.

[Guy Phelan]

You know Pat , know you've got me twisted.  I'll call Bator and ask him tomorrow, I'm wondering if they rivetted the bunker in the late 70's , but I swear it was just reconstruction then.  Oh well, gotta take more fish oil!

Many times when someone would hit it in the DA in a tournament they immediately would declare it unplayable and play another form the tee, for fear of double digits.

I thought it was easy in those days to get out...there was a ladder, wasn't there?

[JESII]

Archie,

When I began caddying there in the mid 90's the DA looked very similar to what is there today. They have added just enough sand in the bottom to eliminate the cone-effect, but it's still no good when a ball actually goes in from a shot. The biggest change to that hole in these 10 or 12 years has been the left channel bunker. It was death (although you're right, not quite as bad as the DA) because you though you could get it out. Three swings later you climbed out with the ball in your hand and looking like you'd just taken a header into the bunker as opposed to making an elegant attempt to play from it...


Carmen was in his later days when I started, but the one doozy I remember was...our group of guys show up in the circle there near Lenny and after we get the clubs out of the trunk he (Carmen) begins 'lightening' up one of the bags. The player spots him and takes offense to the suggestion that his bag is heavy and pipes up "that umbrella only weighs a pound and a half", to which Carmen replies..."why don't you go put an extra pound and a half under the saddle of a 1,500 pound horse over at the track and see how you feel about your hundred dollar bet..."   Priceless.

[TEPaul]

"The biggest change to that hole in these 10 or 12 years has been the left channel bunker. It was death (although you're right, not quite as bad as the DA) because you though you could get it out. Three swings later you climbed out with the ball in your hand and looking like you'd just taken a header into the bunker as opposed to making an elegant attempt to play from it..."

Sully:

You are so right about that little channel bunker on the left/back of the green. Golfers thought they could get out of it onto the green but it was really hard to do and basically not even remotely worth the risk. The best strategy if you got in that part of that bunker was to just putt the ball down the bunker near the front of the green and blast onto the green from there. Believe me I knew that from experience and I did it once in Crump qualifying and made four and was really proud of myself for thinking it through.

That channel bunker the way it was and how narrow it was really balanced out the DA from the tee. I think that bunker back there is too wide now.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()