Seeking Greatness in Florida

[Mike_Young]

The best test of golf I have seen in FL is Pinetree....I don't know if that means greatness but if i had to choose one....

[Guy Phelan]

The best test of golf I have seen in FL is Pinetree....I don't know if that means greatness but if i had to choose one....

Mike,

I was just talking to another GCA member about Pine Tree yesterday and I believe that it is a "strong" course that is much more enjoyed by the better player than the average. I am not sure how you would equate, but I would be interested to know.

Guy

[Mike_Sweeney]

Guy,

I think that WW Pine Barrens falls just short of greatness due to its greens, but I think that course is pretty darn close. Mountain Lake can't touch some of Raynor's other work, but during the months of Dec-March, it is the #1 Raynor with maybe a few arguments from our friends at Monterey Peninsula CC. I submit that every course above is Top 100 during this next week when most of us are in a deep freeze.

[Bill_McBride]

Guy,

I think that WW Pine Barrens falls just short of greatness due to its greens, but I think that course is pretty darn close. Mountain Lake can't touch some of Raynor's other work, but during the months of Dec-March, it is the #1 Raynor with maybe a few arguments from our friends at Monterey Peninsula CC. I submit that every course above is Top 100 during this next week when most of us are in a deep freeze.

Mike, you mean Top 100 you can actually play!  No argument with that.  

[Tim Copeland]

Nothing in FLA can be classified as GREAT

after all...FLA is not up north or out west

[Guy Phelan]

Guy,

I think that WW Pine Barrens falls just short of greatness due to its greens, but I think that course is pretty darn close. Mountain Lake can't touch some of Raynor's other work, but during the months of Dec-March, it is the #1 Raynor with maybe a few arguments from our friends at Monterey Peninsula CC. I submit that every course above is Top 100 during this next week when most of us are in a deep freeze.

Mike,

There are so many on this list that has been created by our brethren, that come short of "greatness," even the ones, which I started the thread. I am just interested in what WE THINK deserve "GREATNESS."

On the extremely cold weekends as we are experiencing in Baltimore, I wish I were playing a course that does not deserve "greatness" in Florida. The warmth, the camaraderie, and the ability to swing a club have much intrigue! Very similar to what I spent with you last weekend!

I am perplexed, as someone, who loves golf and golf course architecture that we find this very large golfing state in the Union which hosts the largest number of golf courses, but can not separate itself with enough “Great” golf courses. You would think that just by the law of averages that we would recognize a number of golf courses deserving of "greatness!"

As a place we enjoy going when the climate is in conducive to playing the game we love, I would just like to play the course deserving "greatness." I hope this makes sense to you and the others who have responded to this thread.

In many respects, I believe that many of us continue to yearn for the same. Just as an excursion that demonstrates that when everything else on the East Coast is under snow or ice, we can fly south and find "greatness."

Maybe I have gone too far; but I can not believe there can not be "greatness" in this large state! Is it almost unfathomable?

All the best,
Guy

[Mike Policano]

Guy,

I am an average golfer who has played and enjoys Pine Tree. (OK, you have played with me and so you know I have to improve to get to average.)  Pine Tree is a fine test for the better player.  It is also very enjoyable for the average golfer.

There are no forced carries.  There is little water in play for a Florida course.  The layout is pretty strategic and challenging.  Also, it does help to be famaliar with your sand wedge since there is a bunker or three.

[Guy Phelan]

Guy,

I am an average golfer who has played and enjoys Pine Tree. (OK, you have played with me and so you know I have to improve to get to average.)  Pine Tree is a fine test for the better player.  It is also very enjoyable for the average golfer.

There are no forced carries.  There is little water in play for a Florida course.  The layout is pretty strategic and challenging.  Also, it does help to be famaliar with your sand wedge since there is a bunker or three.

Dear Mike

Thanks for your comments on Pine Tree and personally, I could not agree more. In fact , just had a chat with Mike Young off line concerning the same subject. However, my question is still valid and placed just befor your post.

Guy

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isleworth must be in this list.

WHY ?

Because it is an interesting, challenging, enjoyable golf course that resides in Florida.  

That wouldn't make it great.[/color]

In fact, it's the BEST I've played in Florida

You made the above statement, so, the question remains, compared to what other Florida courses that you've played ?[/color]

and one of the best tests I have ever played.

You're the one who made the above statement, drawing comparisons and conclusions, not me.
So, what other great tests in the U.S. have you played ?

I'm trying to ascertain your frame of reference, the context in which you make these pronouncements.[/color]

Since I've already made it through law school and three years of the socratic method,

That's wonderful, but this isn't a website to facilitate the discussion of legal matters, it's about golf course architecture.
You made a statement, a comparative statement, I'm just trying to establish what other courses you've played in Florida and what great tests you've played in the U.S..

Those are two simple questions.
Why are you afraid to answer them ?

You said Isleworth was GREAT, the BEST you've played in Florida and one of the GREAT tests of all the courses that you've played.

So, which courses have you played in Florida and what are the other great tests of golf you've played in the U.S ?

If you're going to make bold pronouncements you should be able to support those statements.

If you can't support your claims it helps us with respect to assessing future pronouncements you might make.[/color]

I'll wait for you to answer your questions before I respond.
I never said Isleworth was great, you did.
But, I understand your reluctance to provide the comparitive information.[/color]

But I'll add a couple more, have you played modern Isleworth?  If so, what would make it great Mucci?  If not, just go away.

Attempts to misdirect and avoid the issue won't work.
You said that Isleworth was the BEST course you played in Florida and one of the best tests that you've ever played.

So, what other courses have you played in Florida, and what other great tests of golf have you played in the U.S.  ?[/color]

[SPDB]

Now, we have a list below of Florida golf courses that fall in the category of "Greatness" to some of us for whatever reasons. Take a look at the list and let us know, which ones should definitely be on the list and which ones should not. Keeping in mind "Greatness."

Admirals Cove
Black Diamond
Boca Rio - don't know
Calusa Pines
Dye Preserve
Fernandria Beach
Gulf Stream
Hideout
Indian Creek
Innisbrook – Copperhead
Isleworth
Johns Island – West
Jupiter Hills
Lakerita
loblolly Pines
Loxahatchee
McArthur
Mission Inn
Mountain Lake
Old Marsh
Old Memorial
Pennsacola CC - don't know.
Pine Tree
Seminole
Sharks Tooth - don't know
Southern Dunes - don't know
The Bear’s Club - don't know
The Championship at PGA
The Concession - don't know
Timaquaner
TPC – Sawgrass
Victoria Hills - don't know
World Woods – Pine Barrons
World Woods - Rolling Oaks

Guy - Greatness, as this list, shows is a pretty subjective examination. I think some have gotten this confused with a "where should I play" or "Top 25" thread. I've tried to give a decent if not charitable idea of what courses are great in FL.

Mike S. - I love M. Lake, but I'll take Yeamans Hall Dec-March even with the occasional frost delay.

I would consider adding -

[JR Potts]

Isleworth must be in this list.

WHY ?

Because it is an interesting, challenging, enjoyable golf course that resides in Florida.  

That wouldn't make it great.[/color]

In fact, it's the BEST I've played in Florida

You made the above statement, so, the question remains, compared to what other Florida courses that you've played ?[/color]

and one of the best tests I have ever played.

You're the one who made the above statement, drawing comparisons and conclusions, not me.
So, what other great tests in the U.S. have you played ?

I'm trying to ascertain your frame of reference, the context in which you make these pronouncements.[/color]

Since I've already made it through law school and three years of the socratic method,

That's wonderful, but this isn't a website to facilitate the discussion of legal matters, it's about golf course architecture.
You made a statement, a comparative statement, I'm just trying to establish what other courses you've played in Florida and what great tests you've played in the U.S..

Those are two simple questions.
Why are you afraid to answer them ?

You said Isleworth was GREAT, the BEST you've played in Florida and one of the GREAT tests of all the courses that you've played.

So, which courses have you played in Florida and what are the other great tests of golf you've played in the U.S ?

If you're going to make bold pronouncements you should be able to support those statements.

If you can't support your claims it helps us with respect to assessing future pronouncements you might make.[/color]

I'll wait for you to answer your questions before I respond.
I never said Isleworth was great, you did.
But, I understand your reluctance to provide the comparitive information.[/color]

But I'll add a couple more, have you played modern Isleworth?  If so, what would make it great Mucci?  If not, just go away.

Attempts to misdirect and avoid the issue won't work.
You said that Isleworth was the BEST course you played in Florida and one of the best tests that you've ever played.

So, what other courses have you played in Florida, and what other great tests of golf have you played in the U.S.  ?[/color]

I assume by your silence that you haven't played the course.  Nonetheless, here is my list.

Courses I've played in Florida
1) Isleworth
2) Old Collier
3) Old Florida
4) Emerald Dunes
5) All of the PGA National Courses
6) The Bear Club
7) All of the Grand Cypress Courses
Doral
9) Naples National
10) Bay Hill
11) Ibis
12) All of the Saddlebrook course
And about 3 or 4 others that I cannot remember

Great tests that I have played
1) Medinah under tournament conditions
2) Blackwolk Run - River
3) Whistling Straits under tournament conditions
4) Castle Pines
5) Beverley
6) Pebble Beach
7) Spyglass
Riveria
9) Golden Horseshoe
10) Baltestrol
11) Point O' Woods under tournament conditions
12) Cog Hill under tournament conditions
13) Shoal Creek
14) Torrey Pines
15) Rich Harvest Farms
16) Columbine Country Club
17) Butler National under tournament conditions [The hardest IMO]
18) Olympia Fields
That is all I can remember at this time.  

I can say that not one of the above has green complexes that are even close to as challenging as those at Isleworth.  And it is not even close.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think that Pine Tree is pretty tough to beat in Florida. A very underated Dick Wilson design (Maybe his Best?) with a VERY GOOD golfing membership. Golf course conditions are very good and some really neat bunkering restored by Bobby Weed.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike S. - I love M. Lake, but I'll take Yeamans Hall Dec-March even with the occasional frost delay.

I would consider adding -

And when you play the post-Silva Mountain Lake we will consider your opinion!

Have you played Calusa Pines?

[Tom Roewer]

I have always thought that Myacoo Lakes has always been underrated.  Haven't seen it in a long time or even heard much about it lately.  Does anyone know how it is holding up?  It certainly deserves to be above many on that first long list.  It has Jack's name on it but i'm pretty sure Muirhead was responsible for most of it.

[Guy Phelan]

Now, we have a list below of Florida golf courses that fall in the category of "Greatness" to some of us for whatever reasons. Take a look at the list and let us know, which ones should definitely be on the list and which ones should not. Keeping in mind "Greatness."

Admirals Cove
Black Diamond
Boca Rio - don't know
Calusa Pines
Dye Preserve
Fernandria Beach
Gulf Stream
Hideout
Indian Creek
Innisbrook – Copperhead
Isleworth
Johns Island – West
Jupiter Hills
Lakerita
loblolly Pines
Loxahatchee
McArthur
Mission Inn
Mountain Lake
Old Marsh
Old Memorial
Pennsacola CC - don't know.
Pine Tree
Seminole
Sharks Tooth - don't know
Southern Dunes - don't know
The Bear’s Club - don't know
The Championship at PGA
The Concession - don't know
Timaquaner
TPC – Sawgrass
Victoria Hills - don't know
World Woods – Pine Barrons
World Woods - Rolling Oaks

Guy - Greatness, as this list, shows is a pretty subjective examination. I think some have gotten this confused with a "where should I play" or "Top 25" thread. I've tried to give a decent if not charitable idea of what courses are great in FL.

Mike S. - I love M. Lake, but I'll take Yeamans Hall Dec-March even with the occasional frost delay.

I would consider adding -

Sean,

What you have done, by "lining out" the ones that truly have no chance of "greatness" is a blessing and now we are moving in the right direction!

Your comment at the end of the list is appropriate and I thank you for it!

Guy

P.S. - If Mike S. does not want to go with you to Yeamans, I will!

[Tom Roewer]

Kyle--

As far as Lekarika vs. Lake Wales CC, I agree with you or if I leaned one way, it would be more toward 8 rounds to 2.  

I've visted Fernandina Beach Muni.  It's nice and definitely a throwback.  It reminds me a bit of Lake Worth Muni and Delray Beach CC, both rustic courses that are kinda thin in the grass department but courses that guys on this site would like.  

I would include Old Marsh and McArthur Club in the list of quality Florida golf courses.  If Normandy Shores (Flynn just south of Indian Creek) is ever returned to action it would have to make it too.  Now that I think about, Shark's Tooth up in Panama City is excellent too.

Andy:  Normandy Shores is closed until May 2007.  Does anyone know what thay are doing or who is doing the work?

[Mike Policano]

Guy,

As to your question as to why there are too few "great" (whatever that means) courses in Florida, I observe the following:

Although there are a couple of notable Ross and Raynor courses in Florida, the Golden Age architects built a very small percentage of their courses in Florida.  Tillinghast for example built 60+ courses, 30+ in the NY metro area, but only 2 in Florida, one of which no longer exists.

As others have said, much of the land is flat and featureless relative to many of the great courses in the US.

Further, many of the courses are plagued with too many water hazards.  I note that very few of the top 50 courses in any published list have an abundance of water hazards.

Finally, as mentioned by the esteemed Dan Taylor, many of the courses built in the past 30 years in Florida were part of real estate developments.  The primary objective was/is to use the land for real estate.  One can't help but think that the land left over and buffer land is used for the golf course.  Or are they just a collection of 18 holes spread throughout a development?  Theses courses seemed to be designed for the expected membership which is generally older and probably with a higher percentage of less experienced golfers than a stand alone golf club.

Palm Beach County for example has some large number of courses.  I wonder if one could count as many as 5 as 'great'.  

[John Foley]

Three that I don't see on this list:

Medalist

I've played Medalist and liked many of the holes (this was before the changes to 16-18). Norman (& Dye) put some great thought into the greens sites w/ the chipping area's tieing into the putting surface & surrounds. While I would not call it out for Greatness, it was very very good.

Old Collier

Naples National

Have not played the later two, but know those who have and they speak highly of it.

Do they deserve any mention?

[Guy Phelan]

Guy,

As to your question as to why there are too few "great" (whatever that means) courses in Florida, I observe the following:

Although there are a couple of notable Ross and Raynor courses in Florida, the Golden Age architects built a very small percentage of their courses in Florida.  Tillinghast for example built 60+ courses, 30+ in the NY metro area, but only 2 in Florida, one of which no longer exists.

As others have said, much of the land is flat and featureless relative to many of the great courses in the US.

Further, many of the courses are plagued with too many water hazards.  I note that very few of the top 50 courses in any published list have an abundance of water hazards.

Finally, as mentioned by the esteemed Dan Taylor, many of the courses built in the past 30 years in Florida were part of real estate developments.  The primary objective was/is to use the land for real estate.  One can't help but think that the land left over and buffer land is used for the golf course.  Or are they just a collection of 18 holes spread throughout a development?  Theses courses seemed to be designed for the expected membership which is generally older and probably with a higher percentage of less experienced golfers than a stand alone golf club.

Palm Beach County for example has some large number of courses.  I wonder if one could count as many as 5 as 'great'.  

Mike,

You have the ability to break this down to its simplest form; this is why I like you so much! For all the reasons you summarize is why we do not see “greatness” in Florida.

As Dan Taylor and I discussed when I started this thread, if we could come up with a list of 5 courses that would be amazing!

I could take a stab at the list of courses we have amassed on this thread that I have played and rate them as far as “greatness.” And once again, I defer to DT, who just relayed his wisdom this morning – “agree on greatness. It can also be divided into two: 1) great golf course and 2) great place or experience.”

DT wrote the above to me after I wrote, “You know, I do not want to be cynical about greatness in golf…there are so many wonderful places to play and experience, but once you have witnessed “greatness” you have set the benchmark and not that we can not feel a wonderful golf course and enjoy it, we just keep searching…”

I believe, it will come down to not having to use more than one hand to count and with a state that just overflows with golf courses…that just amazes me!

Guy

[archie_struthers]

 


Just wishing for the sunglasses, I've been stuck working lately and it's awful. Just awful LOL!

Guy, Ive got this new /old  Cleveland Launcher that has revitalized my career. It's a self shooter and I'm quite sure that I can hit a high floater into the left front bunker at 13 at the "Creek" . The bunkers are perfect so I won't get a fried egg, and this driver doesn;t go too far so I don't have to worry about knocking it over the green. Got at least a five to ten yard window to hit it, which oughta be real easy!  LOL

I probably watched Raymond Floyd play that hole 20 times gambling with his cronies in the early 80's and the decision was easy then. He chipped a three wood, knocked either a sand or pw stiff, then knocked it in. No problema for senor Raymond.

I haven't played the Medalist since 1990, thus missed the renovations. Just know it was awfully hard then, but fun because score is  relative . Are the renovations that bad???

Also, I'm a little prejudiced but really like the Majors Golf Club in Palm Bay (West of Melbourne). I think it's one of Palmer Designs best venues! anyone else played it?

Any single digits looking for some good action, we're having a little soiree there March 8-10th.  IM me if interested in the details.


 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have always thought that Myacoo Lakes has always been underrated.  

Tom,  I'd agree.
It's seldom mentioned, but is a good test, with small, slightly elevated greens.  I'd forgotten about it.  I think it's more Desmond Muirhead than Jack Nicklaus.

Haven't seen it in a long time or even heard much about it lately.  Does anyone know how it is holding up?  It certainly deserves to be above many on that first long list.  

I'd agree

It has Jack's name on it but i'm pretty sure Muirhead was responsible for most of it.

I believe that's true.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

For all the tinkering, he just can't seem to get The Medalist "just right"..  Sometimes it looks more like Fazio's work

As a daily diet, I think it's too hard.
There is no rough, just swamp or woods off the fairway and when the wind picks up, it's even narrower.

I liked some of the early versions of # 3, and the changes to # 17 and # 18 haven't been appealing, or an improvement IMO.

It's a terrific spot and they run things exceptionally well, but, it needs a little more tweaking to get it right.

I'd bring Pete back for another look, but, I doubt that would happen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan Potts,

I can see why you'd think it was the best of the courses you've played in Florida.   There's an abundance of product in Florida, some of it very good and some of it mediocre to poor.

Do you consider Isleworth in the same category with Riviera, Pebble Beach and Baltusrol ?

While the green complexes may be outstanding, it's hard to imagine that you place the "entire" golf course in the same class as the three courses you listed above.  That's amongst the top 25 in the country.

[JR Potts]

Ryan Potts,

I can see why you'd think it was the best of the courses you've played in Florida.   There's an abundance of product in Florida, some of it very good and some of it mediocre to poor.

I have no reason is disagree
Do you consider Isleworth in the same category with Riviera, Pebble Beach and Baltusrol ?

No, they are totally different golf courses.  Isleworth has the stamps of modern golf written all over it.  
The bunkers and greens look new

The houses look new

The art that is all over the golf course looks new and

The clubhouse looks new.  


But for despite all that, I absolutely I love it!  

While the green complexes may be outstanding, it's hard to imagine that you place the "entire" golf course in the same class as the three courses you listed above.  That's amongst the top 25 in the country.

Although I did label Isleworth as great in light of the courses being thrown around, I never compared Isleworth to Riviera.  I listed Riviera, Baltestrol, Pebble and Isleworth as great tests I have played upon your summoning.  And in that vein, Isleworth is harder and was a better test of my game than all three of those courses....and again, it's not even close.    

[Hunt]

Paul-
Yes, Jack has redesigned elements of Loxahatchee. Much of the mounding is still there. They also redid the fairways-although what grass they went to escapes me.

Pat-
I, too, was adding to the list of "great" courses based upon the other courses already listed. I think Gulfstream and Loblolly are excellent, challenging courses but greatness is reserved for a very few.