Seeking Greatness in Florida

[Mike_Young]

Good one, Mike Sweeney!  I was trying to think of a tactful way of bringing up that very subject.  Leave it up to Mr. Diplomacy!

Did anyone mention TPC, Sawgrass?

Fernandina Beach?  Where's Tommy to champion this legendary course?

Wayne,

I am unfamiliar with Fernandina Beach...Where is it and who designed?

Thanks
Guy

Fernandina Beach is a very good find....Tommy Birdsong, a golf professional/arhcitect designed it.....

[Guy Phelan]

According to GolfLinks.com these are the following number of golf courses in each state:

Florida = 1423
California = 1092
Pennsylvania = 794
Georgia = 500
Michigan = 1033
New York = 946

If the numbers are even close to being accurate, this provides us an idea of just how many golf courses there are in Florida compared to some of the other golf course rich states, which as opposed to Florida, host major championships.

Two questions:

1.)   What reasons can we give why Florida has so many golf courses, but none worthy of a major championship?
2.)   In conjunction with question #1, except for the handful of golf courses, which have been mentioned in this thread, is Florida attempting to build golf courses for the masses; therefore eliminating much of the need for challenging architecture?

[JR Potts]

Isleworth must be in this list.

WHY ?

Because it is an interesting, challenging, enjoyable golf course that resides in Florida.  In fact, it's the best I've played in Florida and one of the best tests I have ever played.
The greens are outstanding, the forced carries are exciting and it challenges your short game in every way possible.  I love it!

[DTaylor18]

According to GolfLinks.com these are the following number of golf courses in each state:

Florida = 1423
California = 1092
Pennsylvania = 794
Georgia = 500
Michigan = 1033
New York = 946

If the numbers are even close to being accurate, this provides us an idea of just how many golf courses there are in Florida compared to some of the other golf course rich states, which as opposed to Florida, host major championships.

Two questions:

1.)   What reasons can we give why Florida has so many golf courses, but none worthy of a major championship?
2.)   In conjunction with question #1, except for the handful of golf courses, which have been mentioned in this thread, is Florida attempting to build golf courses for the masses; therefore eliminating much of the need for challenging architecture?

Guy, i think there are two key factors:

1) Many of the courses are real estate deals, which usually means that a great golf course is not the focus and

2) Many of the courses are modern, which means many of ther golden age architects that we love spent less time there.

[wsmorrison]

Guy,

On rare occasions when Tom's memory isn't feeble, he remembers way back into his youth when he played golf at a muni, Fernandina Beach, not far from Jacksonville.FL.  

For the longest time he was citing this mysterious course as must-see outstanding golf architecture, Tommy Birdsong's finest.  He was joking but I think some GCAers actually ventured out to see the place.  I don't think expectations were realized.

[Guy Phelan]

Guy,

On rare occasions when Tom's memory isn't feeble, he remembers way back into his youth when he played golf at a muni, Fernandina Beach, not far from Jacksonville.FL.  

For the longest time he was citing this mysterious course as must-see outstanding golf architecture, Tommy Birdsong's finest.  He was joking but I think some GCAers actually ventured out to see the place.  I don't think expectations were realized.

Wayne,

It is so tough to grow old...I'm sure glad that is not happenning to me!  

Guy

[Guy Phelan]

According to GolfLinks.com these are the following number of golf courses in each state:

Florida = 1423
California = 1092
Pennsylvania = 794
Georgia = 500
Michigan = 1033
New York = 946

If the numbers are even close to being accurate, this provides us an idea of just how many golf courses there are in Florida compared to some of the other golf course rich states, which as opposed to Florida, host major championships.

Two questions:

1.)   What reasons can we give why Florida has so many golf courses, but none worthy of a major championship?
2.)   In conjunction with question #1, except for the handful of golf courses, which have been mentioned in this thread, is Florida attempting to build golf courses for the masses; therefore eliminating much of the need for challenging architecture?

Guy, i think there are two key factors:

1) Many of the courses are real estate deals, which usually means that a great golf course is not the focus and

2) Many of the courses are modern, which means many of ther golden age architects that we love spent less time there.

Dan,

I agree with your statements. However, don't you think that one course out of all could rise to be a national championship course? And I am very interested in what you have to write about my second question...

Guy

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

The real reason Fernandina Beach Municipal struck me as it did that one time was it was just so much like a throw-back in time, everything about it, and as you know I love things that are a throw back in time. Everything seemed just like it was in Florida way back when---the course, the aura, the Live Oaks and lichen, the light, the sounds, the smell (sort of like jasmine).

I felt like if I turned around I'd see my Dad standing there just like he was in 1949. It was a pretty powerful "moment".

And then it was at Fernandina that one time when Susie hit the one and only good shot I've ever seen her hit.  For years before that she hit every single shot dead right. It was getting pretty frustrating and then in desperation I told her to move her grip way right bigtime. She said that felt terrible and it was a dumb suggestion. But she grumpily tried it and ripped a drive about 200 yards with a pretty little draw.

She just stood there watching it and staring out there long after the ball hit the ground and stopped. She just kept staring out there and eventually turned to me and said; "What the F... was that?" And Susie never says things like that!  

How can you not love a golf course where stuff like that happens the one and only time there?

Oh, by the way, Susie has never hit another good shot. Everything is just dead right again.

But now I can never go back because it will never be the same again.

When you have "moments" like that you've got to put them in the old Safety Deposit Box and hang onto them forever because they're pretty rare and very precious.

Fernandina Beach Municipal was a real hidden gem for me but it wasn't about the architecture.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

You captured the essence of your feelings perfectly.  Thanks.  Susie used the "F" word?  That must have been a great shot  

[Tim Copeland]

Lekarica is a truly great course

Anytime you have hand lettered signs it is a sign of greatness

[Kyle Harris]

Lekarica is a truly great course

Anytime you have hand lettered signs it is a sign of greatness

I didn't know hand lettered signed influenced the architecture at all. I'll consider that next time I line up a shot on that tee.

[TEPaul]

By the way, Wayne, I'm pretty damn sure I know why Susie hit that one good shot that one time there and never again.

[Tim Copeland]

Lekarica is a truly great course

Anytime you have hand lettered signs it is a sign of greatness

I didn't know hand lettered signed influenced the architecture at all. I'll consider that next time I line up a shot on that tee.

To me there is more to the impression of a course than just the architecture...I guess it comes from working in Maintenance for 10 years and golf construction for 6.

But for Florida I guess you are right....it fits

[Kyle Harris]

Lekarica is a truly great course

Anytime you have hand lettered signs it is a sign of greatness

I didn't know hand lettered signed influenced the architecture at all. I'll consider that next time I line up a shot on that tee.

To me there is more to the impression of a course than just the architecture...I guess it comes from working in Maintenance for 10 years and golf construction for 6.

But for Florida I guess you are right....it fits

Tim,

The place runs on a $300,000 budget and costs $26 to play on a weekend with a cart.

It has more character than 98% of any other course I've played in Florida.

I'm the golf course maintenance business, too.

[Tim Copeland]

Lekarica is a truly great course

Anytime you have hand lettered signs it is a sign of greatness

I didn't know hand lettered signed influenced the architecture at all. I'll consider that next time I line up a shot on that tee.

To me there is more to the impression of a course than just the architecture...I guess it comes from working in Maintenance for 10 years and golf construction for 6.

But for Florida I guess you are right....it fits

Tim,

The place runs on a $300,000 budget and costs $26 to play on a weekend with a cart.

It has more character than 98% of any other course I've played in Florida.

I'm the golf course maintenance business, too.

I see...well if you are in the golf maintenance biz then you certainly understand the "perception is reality" saying.

sorry to bother you

[Bill_McBride]

Isleworth must be in this list.

WHY ?

Because it is an interesting, challenging, enjoyable golf course that resides in Florida.  In fact, it's the best I've played in Florida and one of the best tests I have ever played.
The greens are outstanding, the forced carries are exciting and it challenges your short game in every way possible.  I love it!

Ryan, when did you play Isleworth, before or after the major renovation?

I played it before and found it, with a couple of exceptions, to be pretty repetitious and kind of boring.  I hear the renovation was very comprehensive, all new greens, bunkers, shaping.  What can you confirm?

The place was pretty cool around the clubhouse - lockers for quite a few big name PGA players, a pool table, double decker locker room.  Arnold Palmer was out playing with a couple of groups, this was right before his tournament at Bay Hill.

[JR Potts]

Isleworth must be in this list.

WHY ?

Because it is an interesting, challenging, enjoyable golf course that resides in Florida.  In fact, it's the best I've played in Florida and one of the best tests I have ever played.
The greens are outstanding, the forced carries are exciting and it challenges your short game in every way possible.  I love it!

Ryan, when did you play Isleworth, before or after the major renovation?

I played it before and found it, with a couple of exceptions, to be pretty repetitious and kind of boring.  I hear the renovation was very comprehensive, all new greens, bunkers, shaping.  What can you confirm?

The place was pretty cool around the clubhouse - lockers for quite a few big name PGA players, a pool table, double decker locker room.  Arnold Palmer was out playing with a couple of groups, this was right before his tournament at Bay Hill.

I played it once last year and three times last week.  However, I never played it prior to the renovation so I can't compare the two.  I can tell you that it looked like all of the greens and bunkers were redone.  I don't know if the routing was changed or not.  I will say that I'm sure it was changed quite dramatically as the holes I played were anything but repititous and boring.

[Tim Copeland]

 

I played it once last year and three times last week.  However, I never played it prior to the renovation so I can't compare the two.  I can tell you that it looked like all of the greens and bunkers were redone.  I don't know if the routing was changed or not.  I will say that I'm sure it was changed quite dramatically as the holes I played were anything but repititous and boring.

How did the bunkers play??

Any plugged lies??

Did you see the new short game area??

[JR Potts]

I played it once last year and three times last week.  However, I never played it prior to the renovation so I can't compare the two.  I can tell you that it looked like all of the greens and bunkers were redone.  I don't know if the routing was changed or not.  I will say that I'm sure it was changed quite dramatically as the holes I played were anything but repititous and boring.

How did the bunkers play??

Any plugged lies??

Did you see the new short game area??

The bunkers were the best I've ever played (Or tied with Butler National.  I believe they have the same sand as Butler).  I didn't get one plugged lie and I surely hit enough shots into the bunkers to get a solid sample size.

Yeah, I saw the new short game area.  Like I said, everything there is first rate.  If I could add a couple zeros to my bank account, get a well paying job in Orlando, and convince the wife to move, I would go there in a nano-second.

[Kyle Harris]

Lekarica is a truly great course

Anytime you have hand lettered signs it is a sign of greatness

I didn't know hand lettered signed influenced the architecture at all. I'll consider that next time I line up a shot on that tee.

To me there is more to the impression of a course than just the architecture...I guess it comes from working in Maintenance for 10 years and golf construction for 6.

But for Florida I guess you are right....it fits

Tim,

The place runs on a $300,000 budget and costs $26 to play on a weekend with a cart.

It has more character than 98% of any other course I've played in Florida.

I'm the golf course maintenance business, too.

I see...well if you are in the golf maintenance biz then you certainly understand the "perception is reality" saying.

sorry to bother you

Tim,

It certainly doesn't bother me, and you're right, perception is reality. The course at which I work is definitely in the high end area and you're right; we would NEVER resort to such things, as a matter of course for the membership demands and the budget with which we can work. Lekarica caters to a different clientele, that's all.

However, to me, that does not take away from the architectural merit of the course one bit. Stiles and Van Kleek had/have no control over how the course has been maintained and managed over the past 80 years. Despite these shortcomings, the design has held true and is probably $800,000 away from being something really special.

[Guy Phelan]

OK here is the list we have compiled so far of what WE believe to be Great Golf Courses in Florida, in alphabetical order:

Admirals Cove
Black Diamond
Boca Rio
Calusa Pines
Dye Preserve
Fernandria Beach
Hideout
Indian Creek
Innisbrook – Copperhead
Isleworth
Johns Island – West
Jupiter Hills
Lakerita
Mission Inn
Mountain Lake
Old Memorial
Pennsacola CC
Pine Tree
Seminole
Southern Dunes
The Bear’s Club
The Championship at PGA
The Concession
TPC – Sawgrass
Victoria Hills
World Woods – Pine Barrons


 
Do you have others that we should consider?

[Kyle Harris]

How about World Woods - Rolling Oaks? I've yet to play, but have heard pretty good things.

[Tim Copeland]

I played it once last year and three times last week.  However, I never played it prior to the renovation so I can't compare the two.  I can tell you that it looked like all of the greens and bunkers were redone.  I don't know if the routing was changed or not.  I will say that I'm sure it was changed quite dramatically as the holes I played were anything but repititous and boring.

How did the bunkers play??

Any plugged lies??

Did you see the new short game area??

The bunkers were the best I've ever played (Or tied with Butler National.  I believe they have the same sand as Butler).  I didn't get one plugged lie and I surely hit enough shots into the bunkers to get a solid sample size.

Yeah, I saw the new short game area.  Like I said, everything there is first rate.  If I could add a couple zeros to my bank account, get a well paying job in Orlando, and convince the wife to move, I would go there in a nano-second.

Cool...thats good to hear.  I will pass along the good news to my crew

I  and my crew just finished a bunker renovation there....Pro-Angle sand brought in by train and then trucked to Isleworth.....new Sand-mat on the slopes and new drainage in the bottoms.

We also built the short game area in just under a month.  Augusta National sand in one bunker and TPC Sawgrass sand in another.  The remaining 4 bunkers have Pro-Angle sand in them.  I would love to see it when it is grown in total.

You are correct...there is no place like it on earth.

[Joe Andriole]

As a result of "maturation," maintenance and different sand variety there are few if any "plugged lies" in Isleworth's bunkers which are now quite firm and reminiscent of of the Sandbelt hazards

[Tim Copeland]

Lekarica is a truly great course

Anytime you have hand lettered signs it is a sign of greatness

I didn't know hand lettered signed influenced the architecture at all. I'll consider that next time I line up a shot on that tee.

To me there is more to the impression of a course than just the architecture...I guess it comes from working in Maintenance for 10 years and golf construction for 6.

But for Florida I guess you are right....it fits

Tim,

The place runs on a $300,000 budget and costs $26 to play on a weekend with a cart.

It has more character than 98% of any other course I've played in Florida.

I'm the golf course maintenance business, too.

I see...well if you are in the golf maintenance biz then you certainly understand the "perception is reality" saying.

sorry to bother you

Tim,

It certainly doesn't bother me, and you're right, perception is reality. The course at which I work is definitely in the high end area and you're right; we would NEVER resort to such things, as a matter of course for the membership demands and the budget with which we can work. Lekarica caters to a different clientele, that's all.

However, to me, that does not take away from the architectural merit of the course one bit. Stiles and Van Kleek had/have no control over how the course has been maintained and managed over the past 80 years. Despite these shortcomings, the design has held true and is probably $800,000 away from being something really special.

I understand about a different clientele....trust me.

I grew a course in that reduced my budget the first year out by $30,000 to help fund a hotel.

My feet were still held to the fire because I was at a University course(Clemson) that had an agronomy program(although they never came across the street).  I enlisted the help of various members and alumni to get things accomplished around the course.  It can be done.

Surely there is someone at that course that knows someone that, owns,builds,makes,signs....or has a router...and a piece of wood.

Members love to contribute to the course they play.....all it takes is a little effort.

When I saw the sign the first thing that popped in my mind was the saying my old GM used on me at Walker Course....."Perception is reality"

I'll hush now