[Patrick_Mucci]

When I think about holes that have substantively elevated greens I'm reminded about the unique challenges they present.

First, they're uphill, which generally requires more club.
Second, they're partially blind, which creates doubt.
Third, they usually shield/deceive the golfer with respect to wind in their face.
Fourth, underclubed or mis-hit shots can be seen rolling back down the hill, to the base of the foot pad or into hazards, a mishap that's difficult to watch.
Fifth, the recovery is that much more difficult.

With all of these challenging assets or elements, with all of the earthmoving done today, why aren't more of these holes constructed ?

The 8th at NGLA and the 14th, 15th, 16th and 18th at The Creek come to mind immediately.   I'm sure that there are many, many others.

Could you name some of your favorites, describing what you like about them.

If they present such an exciting challenge, why don't we see more of them ?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat;

  I think, one example which many on here can relate to is the 15th at Bethpage Black.  

  Are you familiar with this hole?  

  It has been discussed on here many times before, and, in my experience, part of the fun and challenge of playing the hole is, after first hitting a drive which would enable you to have a go at the green in regulation, is attempting to hit and hold the green.  

   Times I have played there, I have had 5 and 6-iron in.  I hit the ball high, but it's still a difficult target to hit.  The green features distinct contour, and is a challenge to hit and hold, and, if missed, find the correct location on the green with the third shot.  

  Another example would be the first at Bethpage Red, playing 471 from the blue tees, or the fifteenth, playing 480 from the blue tees now.  

  My best hypothesis as to why more holes aren't constructed like this today is because target clients might see the demanding shot requirement as "unfair".  I may be wrong.  It could also be due to the types of land different new golf courses are built on.  Lederach features some examples of significant uphill approaches in the 12th, 13th, and 18th holes, and moderate uphill approaches on the 2nd, 3rd, 6th holes.  

Looking at the the recent Manufacturers GC thread, what about the 18th hole?  I haven't played it, but from the pictures, it appears to embody similar qualities.

[Kalen Braley]

I would also add one more problem to them:

Often times when taking too much club the ball runs over the back usually leaving a nasty downhill chip to a green running away from you.

[Kalen Braley]

While I've never played it, the 10th at Shinnecock caused the players some difficulty during the last U.S open that was played there.  It was playing downwind most days making it almost impossible to get the 2nd shot to stop on the green.  And if you came up short, the ball would roll some 40-50 yards back down the fairway.

[Garry Cox]

Hole 9 at Shinnecock is one that comes to mind.  Club selection is critical and watching the ball in the air is great fun with the eager anticipation of seeing where it came to rest after climbing the hill.

Garry

[Scott Szabo]

Ballyneal - Hole #11 has all the features that you mention.

Ran's description:

11th hole, 165 yards; Nobody knows just how good - or how hard - Ballyneal will become. Take the 11th hole for instance which plays from dune top to dune top. As the course matures, and as Green Keeper Dave Hensley works his magic, golfers will come to fear the front hole locations at the 11th as anything just short will likely roll twenty or thirty yards down the hill. Indeed, the golfer will hope a slightly mishit tee ball ends up in the front bunker. Fortunately though the putting surface is large, giving the golfer plenty of opportunity to show the front bank respect by hitting well onto the green and getting down in two putts from fifty feet. This hole highlights that the principal challenge of the course is indeed the short grass. It also highlights the fact that sometimes the golfer will be surprised as to exactly where his ball ends up!  

[Bill_McBride]

#7 at Black Mesa is one of my all time favorite fortress holes.

It's not long.  The steeply uphill pitch with something like 7-iron down must carry a large, deep bunker to a shallow, steeply sloped green (left to right down the hill).

That's if you drive straight at the green.

If you play off to the right toward the bottom of the green, there is a large area of safety from which you can play a longer shot almost directly up the axis of the green, but it's quite a bit longer and now there's not as much width for the target.

The most fun thing about this hole is that it is possible to play a longer second shot from the direct line, up onto the bank behind the green, and the ball will funnel back onto the green.  I saw Adam Clayman play this shot within a few feet of the pin, very exciting shot!

Here's a photo from a spot maybe 40 yards right of the direct line of the second shot; if you are on the direct line, the bunker is between you and a left pin.  The hole is also quite a bit more uphill than the photo appears.



#17 is another beauty of a fortress hole at Black Mesa; it's also very cool because the landing area for the tee shot can be very bumpy!



Anybody who hasn't been to Black Mesa should make plans, even if Garland didn't like it all that much!

[wsmorrison]

The 9th hole at Shinnecock Hills used to have fairway below the green so that balls hit with too much spin or hit short would roll at least 30 yards down the hill.  Today it gets caught up in rough.  Of course the fairway height years ago was higher, but the feature would still have been effective in earlier days.

Yale's 10th is a great example of this fortress concept.  With its engineered look, it has more of an appearance of a fort than more natural looking architecture.  The green sits a full 12' above the fronting bunkers that are well above the somewhat flat landing area.

Rolling Green (you should get there someday, Pat) has a number of excellent elevated greens that are among the very best I have encountered.  The very best RGGC elevated green complexes include the 4th!, 8th!!, 11th, 12th, 15th!! and 18th.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Pat-

Personally I do not like uphill green complexes. However, I do enjoy the ones which are built with the lay of the land and aren't say manufactured.

I do feel that if you are going to have a green that plays uphill the green must be somewhat large. The good holes seem to posses this. Bethpage #15, the Alps at national, I like the 8th at  National but am not aware of the way it was built, #1 at  Bethpage Red love the hole--Though it is a hard approach shot for me. Has killed me in the Long Island Open.

Could it be that these types of holes do not play as well when they are man made?

Could a reason that they are not 'created' this day in age is because they are too difficult for the average golfer?

Are they not as fun to play?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat-

Personally I do not like uphill green complexes. However, I do enjoy the ones which are built with the lay of the land and aren't say manufactured.

I do feel that if you are going to have a green that plays uphill the green must be somewhat large. The good holes seem to posses this. Bethpage #15, the Alps at national, I like the 8th at  National but am not aware of the way it was built, #1 at  Bethpage Red love the hole--Though it is a hard approach shot for me. Has killed me in the Long Island Open.

Could it be that these types of holes do not play as well when they are man made?

Could a reason that they are not 'created' this day in age is because they are too difficult for the average golfer?

Are they not as fun to play?

M. Shea;

  I've noticed, approaches hit short on #1 at The Red usually hang up on the hill, rather than roll back down.  Still, chips and pitches to that green aren't much fun from the awkward lies from 50 yards and in.  

  Just think, if BSP was really F&F, how much of a ballbuster it would be if putts that missed could run off the first green and down the hill...

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Doug-

Very funny and a great point. I would like to know how fast and firm Bethpage could get the Red before it would start to hurt the golf course with the amount of play the Red sees.

I have seen alot of shots hit sort hang on the hill-- very hard shot to judge. Again the hole flows great up that hill. Block off the bunkers on the 18th of the Black, take the flag out and who knew it was a golf hole.

But still a great example of a very good uphill green and great example of failing to storm the fortress.

[Phil Benedict]

Obviously the 9th at Augusta. Remember Greg Norman in 96. Being short is death but the downhill putt from the back of the green is no bargain either.  We have a couple of elevated greens with false fronts at Waterbury. Seeing the ball roll off the green to the bottom of the hill is a real ball buster. Lots of options on the pitch, though - none of them easy.

[JR Potts]

#6 at Isleworth or #5 at the Bev.

[Lloyd_Cole]

http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole16.html
The 16th at Tobacco Road. I like this hole, but unfortunately, like one or two others on the course, the short balls all collect in a small area of fairway which is more divots than turf.
I'd say this would be my only potential negative regarding this type of hole.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

 Loyd-

Number 9 at Tobacco is also a decent hole uphill.

Although the green is on the small side for an uphill shot, I like how Strantz kind of 'evens' things up by making the hole on the shorter side.

I have never liked 16- very funky hole I don't think it rewards a good shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

M Shea Sweeney,

The 8th at NGLA is totally constructed.

I feel that the fill came from the excavation areas on # 9, TEPaul feels that the fill came from the woods on the right.

Volcano or Knoll holes also fit the bill.

CBM, SR and CB artificially constructed most of their fortress like holes at the green end.

If done well, I don't think it matters if they were "found" or built.

The challenge they present to the golfer is diverse and interesting.

Wayne Morrison,

Do you feel that the fronting rough on # 9 at SHCC was to keep balls from running down the hill, or, to keep low hit shots from running UP the hill ?

[Lloyd_Cole]

Loyd-

Number 9 at Tobacco is also a decent hole uphill.

Although the green is on the small side for an uphill shot, I like how Strantz kind of 'evens' things up by making the hole on the shorter side.

I have never liked 16- very funky hole I don't think it rewards a good shot.

9 is great hole!
I have no problem with 16, other than stated catchment area. It should be a simple par, getting too cute could cost you...

[BCrosby]

One of the best I've ever seen is the 11th at Athens CC.

Long par 4, green set on top of a 30 foot ridge that is diagonal to the line of play. Lots of decisions as to both distance and direction on your approach shot.

Miss short and the ball rolls down 30 yards from the green leaving a totally blind recovery. Great hole.

Bob

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne Morrison,

Do you feel that the fronting rough on # 9 at SHCC was to keep balls from running down the hill, or, to keep low hit shots from running UP the hill ?"

That's a good question, Pat.  In today's game, with closer approaches and more spin, the fairway below the green would be a nice return, but it more than likely would not happen.

As for what it was meant when it was built, I have to think about that.  The slope is pretty steep to reliably run a shot in there.  I'm going to take a pass on the question for now.  What do you think?

[JESII]

It was meant for neither...it's rough because they didn't feel like mowing the grass that short...and don't need to looking forward...where would the ball stop?

[Jeff Goldman]

There are 4 holes that could be deemed fortress holes at Olympia Fields, each different.

The best may well be no. 6 on the South Course.  Only 360 yards or so, it allows both the best and the rest of us to make 3 or 13. The green is about 20 feet higher than the fairway, and has 10-15 foot falloffs in front and to the left, which can be seen from the fairway, but a very steep 20-25 foot falloff into the "kitchen" on the right.  The hole is being restored closer to its original configuration so that you will be able to play safe to the left, and have the green at an angle and playing right toward the kitchen, or you can firt with bunkers on the right and be shooting straight up the long, narrow, very sloped green.  

No. 12 South is 210 yards par-3, again to a very sloped green perched up 20 feet above a fairway mown area.  Go past the pin and there is a real chance of putting off and down the hill.  If your tee shot ends up at the bottom you have a real chance to use the "automatic ball retrieval system" which sends any ball not hit hard enough back to your feet.

No 3 on the North is 450 yards (or more from the back), with a tee shot and an upper fairway that goes about 175 yards, and then a steep drop to a blind lower fairway. Butterfield Creek crosses the fairway about 100 yards from the green.   The green is fairly visible, but stands starkly out, with a  bunker left and stair-step bunkers right.  Really fun tee shot looking at nothing but a far away tree line, and vary challenging approach for better players.  The rest of us often layup in front of the creek, and have a really fun wedge, with the ball standing out against the sky, and waiting to see whether there will be a chance at par.

14 North is also a form of fortress, 440 yards, and the most beautiful, with the creek crossing the fairway just past the tee, going up the right side of the fairway, and crossing again 150 yards from the green. The green is basically blind on the approach, and there is an abrupt elevation change at the far creek bank - you're looking at a 10 foot soil "wall" on the approach, to a green 20-30 feet above you that slopes severely from back right to front left.  You can easily putt off the green if you go past the pin, and the ball can roll 10-20 yards down.  Neither 3 nor 14 have any fairway bunkers - they don't need them.

All four are natural holes, and, except for 12 South, which was changed in 1921, a testament to the routing abilities of Willie Park Jr. on the North, and Bendelow on the South (hey, he found 6).  I find 6 South superior, only because anyone can make 3 or 13 there, while regular players have little chance on the other 3.

Jeff Goldman

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

I wasn't thinking of a shot that intentionally runs up the slope, I was thinking more of "thin", "bladed" or "skulled" shots that ended up far better than their execution deserved.

JES II,

They did mow that grass that short at one time.
The question is, WHY did they stop doing so ?

[JESII]

Pat,

Many greens with shaved slopes in front are great, this one (#9 at Shinnecock) sends the ball 90 yards down the hill, not 20, not 40, but 90.

I'm not usually one to make excuses for the player, but I can see the pro versus con decision here pretty clear. It's a great hole as is with no bargain for anyone.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Many greens with shaved slopes in front are great, this one (#9 at Shinnecock) sends the ball 90 yards down the hill, not 20, not 40, but 90.

I'm not usually one to make excuses for the player, but I can see the pro versus con decision here pretty clear. It's a great hole as is with no bargain for anyone.

JES II,

Doesn't # 10 do the same thing ?

[JESII]

Pat,

#10 send balls back 30 - 50 yards depending on the height of the fairway...#9 does not discriminate, the ball is going back 90 - 100 yards if it makes 5 yards off the green (assuming it is cut as fairway all the way down). Why is there a difference between 40 yards (Max penalty on #10) and 90 yards (min penalty on #9)? It has more to do with missing the green from greenside, which as you know is quite possible on both holes, than from the fairway.


As to the topic, both instances create a full penalty if the approach is not played properly.


Interesting note: I played a couple rounds with David Eger in 1998 and his opinion was that both of those holes were too difficult for the US Open. Not sure if there is evidence of that in the archives here (as he was an active poster in that time frame) but I disagreed with his opinion then and now.

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