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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lloyd, it is great fun to have a real music performance artist participate in our golf discussions.  It makes the discussions much more insightful when opinions on golf course architecture and playing the game (as an art form) are expressed from artists in other disciplines.  I wish we had more painters here.

But this got me thinking about one of the hot button topics of technology changing both the game of golf and the changes effecting the field of play and design of those fields.  Surely, in all other forms of art and craft, high technology and inventions change the landscape and arena in which the art is presented or performed.  

We all have varying opinions of how the high tech in golf that makes it easier to play shots, distance, consistency of ball and impliment performance caused significant effects on the artists that design the courses and performance artists who had developed a set of virtuoso skills.  (i.e. Cory Pavin and his likes)  

So Lloyd, below are just a few googled articles on the high tech advances on your instrument.  I have to think that these high tech advances in the guitar evoke a similar response of resistance by some "highly accomplished purists" and performance artists because the high tech seems to simplify the learning and playing of the instrument, and allows more mediocrity of playing talent to participate in the creative song playing and writing process.  

I'm thinking that has some analogy to golf.  High tech golf B&I have to some extent marginalized the creative playing artists (shot makers) and provided the bombers with mediocre swings and less actual swing talent the opportunity to slug it long and pitch and putt.  Or, the high tech has caused more expensive design demands for length, space needed, etc.

Lloyd, Do these issues effect you and your perceptions of high tech the same in music as in golf; and is H.T. a blessing or curse?

http://gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/newsrelease/GUITAR.html

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Guitar-With-Intel-Mobile-Technology-13576.shtml
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2007, 04:01:20 PM »
OT - A lot of Lloyd's recent work is in heavy rotation on XM satellite radio - I've heard it on XM 75 and some others.  It's really great music!

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2007, 04:41:33 PM »
Mr. Daley - forgive me for intruding into this topic, as Mr. Cole hasn't yet responded, but as a musician who hasn't (and won't) reached the heights that Lloyd Cole has attained (and who hasn't played at the number and variety of courses he has played), I figure I can still throw in a few words on this topic.

First of all, it doesn't seem to me, after reading those articles, that either of the proposed innovations make playing guitar easier, or mess with the integrity of playing the guitar. In the first case, they're looking for a way to make guitars sound better, and in the second, they're just slapping some existing computer communications technology on a guitar to facilitate......something. But making a cheap acoustic sound better won't do much to make anyone a "better" musician. I don't know if the golf analogy works for me here, in terms of "game improvement" and its effect on the integrity of music and musicianship.

A better analogy, to my mind, might be the advances in keyboard technology, to the point where you can hit one button, or a series of buttons, and the machine can create synchronized sounds that are pretty amazing. I was waiting in the keyboard room of a local music store a while back while a clerk was grabbing my order, and in 10 minutes or so I had five or six keyboards all humming away together in a relatively interesting, layered texture. It took very little musical ability to get that sound going, but if there hadn't been a bunch of computers back there synching things and creating sounds it would have been unbelievably laborious to create. It was, to my mind "too easy," and even though it sounded pretty cool, it certainly wasn't composition or there wasn't much creativity involved.

That said, there's a lot of music that I like out there that has elements that were likely created in much that same way, "noodling" around with a keyboard/computer. And when it comes to guitar playing and songwriting, there's a lot of music I love that would be scoffed at by "highly accomplished purists" - music that was created by folks that could easily be described by some as possessing "mediocrity of playing talent." There's ability there, something sometimes ineffable and defying categorization, that makes it enjoyable, or worthy, or necessary.

That, I think, for me, is where the golf analogy fails. In music, there's no scoring (well, point-wise anyway), and no "winners," per se. There might be a "money list," but the connection between that list and the ability of the people on it is to my mind not remotely so clear as it is in the game of golf. The playing field in music has certainly been leveled by technology to a certain degree, with great-sounding instruments and recording technology being more available to more people than ever before, but while mediocrities may have an increased opportunity to succeed, there's a lot of talented folks out there who are also getting their hands on this stuff and making themselves heard.

I'm not a good enough at golf, frankly, for hi tech advances in golf technology to really change things a whole lot for me. But in the hands of the best players the technology starts a chain reaction that results in great courses being marginalized or desecrated. Classical music may have been marginalized by the popularity of other musical forms, but we can still listen to it, pretty much exactly as intended, if we want.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2007, 05:05:26 PM »
Kirk, I'll pass that along to my Dad, Mr. Daley.  ;) ;D

But really, that was a very fine response to my question.  

I'm thinking in terms of whether the H.T. B&I will ever produce the skill level of a virtuoso shot maker.  It will produce great champions, at the top of their game for modern times and modern courses built of great length.   But, will they be the virtuoso's of past eras like Jones, Hogan, Chi Chi, due to the more consistent B&I performance, requiring less creativity and finesse?  I don't know that answer because I'm not a great musician or accomplished golfer.

Yet in music, like guitarists, will there be more playing virtuosos like Carlos Montoya's, Andres Segovia's.  Will there be more Mozarts, if composing varied sounds uses H.T. instruments that are electronically enhanced and practically playing themselves?  They knew the nuances of the instruments and how to coax the varied sounds and rythms out via virtuosity.  Now, it is plug and play.  ( I say that somewhat sarcastically, as I know it still takes a measure of talent and dedication).  But, what is the genius meter reading for those that rely on H.T. versus learning the craft of the instrument as an apprentice using pure instruments, with no supporting electronic enhancements?

With golf, can a fellow doing very well with H.T. really go back and play shots with B&I from 50 years ago and be competitive on a classic old course?  Or, does he need a 7500 yard, bowling alley FW, moderately contoured but lightening fast greens sort of venue to be competitive or shine, only with his H.T. B&Is?  
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 05:06:19 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007, 05:23:57 PM »
Dick --

Another thing to keep in mind about the high-tech effect on music is that the best creators of music are not necessarily the best players. I don't really know how well Beethoven and Mozart played their instruments, but their genius was in imagining what notes COULD be played, and how they would sound when played correctly. By and large, they left the performing to others. I think it takes playing ability, obviously, to create a work of musical genius, but one need not be a virtuoso.

To echo Kirk's point, think of the great songs of the 20th century, from "Blowin' in the Wind" to "Yesterday" to "I've Got You Under My Skin" to "My Funny Valentine." I can play the first two on guitar well enough to fool you into thinking that it might have been Dylan or McCartney playing. Could I have written either one? Not in a million years. Same for the latter two, which I could probably learn to recreate with an orchestral computer program, if I worked at it long enough.

The genius is in the writing, not the playing, and no high-tech gadgets will ever provide the inspiration necessary to imagine great art.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007, 05:29:58 PM »
Lloyd's current tour is two blokes, two guitars and an Apple Mac. Sounds bloody marvellous.

Just spotted he's playing tonight in Dublin and tomorrow in Cork for our Irish GCAers.

FBD.

PS Sorry Lloyd, just noticed the Glasgow date too. Oops.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 05:30:16 PM by Martin Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2007, 05:48:12 PM »
Rick, going along with your thoughts, one must consider MacKenzie.  He was not a great player, but designed a pretty artistically inspired golf course or two.  ;)  He, wrote of going to watch the best players of the times, and then understood the shot makers talent and could imagine how the design would challenge those shotmakers abilities.  

But, Donald Ross was a very good player,  and he was creative and prolific with design as well.  Creativity and imagining the design of a golf course or composition of a musical piece are not inter-dependent on playing talent, it seems.  

But, what of the player as golfer or musician?  Does H.T. dumb down the requirements to become a virtuoso in either field?

Let's take Tiger out of the equation because he is an allien being and is a virtuose shot maker, probably with a garden rake in his hands.  

But, the top modern players in general, could they make the shots with the old equipment, controled draws and fades, as consistently as the old masters?  I suspect - but can't prove - that the old masters could step right into the modern era with the great B&I technology and become great shot makers rapidly.  But, could those that learned with high tech, go back so easily?  So, which players, golf or music, are more genius?  Old time accoustic instrument and niblick and spoon masters, or high tech pickers and modern tour players?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 05:53:09 PM »
Aye Marty, given the current time, maybe Lloyd is just finishing his performance, and might fire up the old laptop and log on to GCA.com to decompress after the show.  ;) ;D 8)

Of course on the other thread, he states he is up to going to walk about "The Island" tomorrow, though an injury precluded him from playing, he wants to study the old sod.  So, we know he is probably more of a virtuoso and classically sympathetic sort of bloke.  ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 06:05:20 PM »
Yet in music, like guitarists, will there be more playing virtuosos like Carlos Montoya's, Andres Segovia's.  Will there be more Mozarts, if composing varied sounds uses H.T. instruments that are electronically enhanced and practically playing themselves?

Shotmaking may go the way of lute-playing in our modern world.......................but achieving a high level of shotmaking skill is a somewhat abstract quality for a golfer to have anyway. At the end of the tournament it's all about the lowest score, and shotmaking has always been a necessary means to that end. But perhaps no more.

Still, that aesthetic has always spoken to me, for what that's worth. I love the notion of a well-shaped shot. In music, though, since the end is less clearly defined, the methods of getting there will necessarily remain more diverse. At least I hope so !
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 06:12:14 PM »

Shotmaking may go the way of lute-playing in our modern world.......................

Kirk,
tell that to Mr Sumner:

http://billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003154569

He's finally lost it, methinketh....

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2007, 06:22:57 PM »

Shotmaking may go the way of lute-playing in our modern world.......................

Kirk,
tell that to Mr Sumner:

http://billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003154569

He's finally lost it, methinketh....

FBD.

Martin, he lost it about 30 years ago when he decided that his take on ska and reggae was interesting.  
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 06:23:31 PM by James Morgan »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2007, 08:24:52 PM »
RJ
Indeed, I was on stage. Last night was great, a 62 type of concert. Tonight - I think I may have rescued a 71.
There has been nothing, that I'm aware of, that has made playing songs on the acoustic guitar any easier, over the last 20 years or so, than they were before that.
There have been numerous innovations that have made it possible to attain certain guitar SOUNDS that might have required a more substantial investment in times past.
But nothing that makes the equivalent of a thinned 5 iron sound OK.
Titleist 962s helped me get away, to a certain extent, with a thinned 5 iron. I was really shocked during my first round with them. I hit a poor shot (I think it was actually a 4 iron and the clubs were 962bs) and it finished up on the front of the green...
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 08:28:03 PM by Lloyd_Cole »

Lloyd_Cole

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Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 04:53:31 AM »
Lloyd, another Q.

Which do you have more of? ;)

A Sets of irons.

B Guitars.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007, 05:30:48 AM »
Lloyd, another Q.

Which do you have more of? ;)

A Sets of irons.

B Guitars.


About the same, I think. I certainly have more wedges.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 08:23:26 AM »
Lloyd, another Q.

Which do you have more of? ;)

A Sets of irons.

B Guitars.


About the same, I think. I certainly have more wedges.
Wow I never realised it was the same Lloyd Cole. I used to love "Mr Malcontent". Do you still play that live?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 10:35:56 AM »
A great deal of classical music is, as it were, going back to playing with gutties and hickories.  Period performance is the musical equivalent of a Mark Fine restoration.  However, you'll see the lutenists getting their gut-stringed instruments in tune using an electronic gadget, the harpsichordists tuning their instruments to one temperament or another using similar tools, and even many of the the neo-baroque organs of Scandinavia, the Low Countries and Germany (and some in the UK) use tracker actions but probably incorporate a sequencer in order to make complicated registration feasible.  And, of course, the organs are now electrically blown when once they would have been hand-, animal- or water-blown.

Perhaps the dottiest piece of pseudo-autheticity was an organ I encountered in Cambridge (UK, not Mass) which was built along the most scrupulously period lines, except that it had an electric blower.  However, there was a stop you could pull which recreated hand-blown wind-pressure:  the more notes you played or the more stops you pulled out the more feeble did the wind-pressure become and the more out-of-tune the instrument.

Where there is a greater problem for the modern classical performer is in the multi-purpose auditoria economically required today.  These tend to be in the smaller places and school halls where perhaps they have one classical concert a month, such as our own Wilmslow Leisure Centre.  For much of the time the main hall hosts gymnastics, 5-a-side football, flower shows etc.  It is quite a struggle for, say, an amateur choir to make any impact through the sound-absorbant materials of the wall-bars, pommel horses and drape curtains.  However, go and sing in an ancient church - ideally the very church for which the particular music was written - and almost certainly the acoustic will be an absolute joy to performers and audience alike.

Ken_Cotner

Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 11:39:24 AM »
RJ
Indeed, I was on stage. Last night was great, a 62 type of concert. Tonight - I think I may have rescued a 71.
There has been nothing, that I'm aware of, that has made playing songs on the acoustic guitar any easier, over the last 20 years or so, than they were before that.
There have been numerous innovations that have made it possible to attain certain guitar SOUNDS that might have required a more substantial investment in times past.
But nothing that makes the equivalent of a thinned 5 iron sound OK.
Titleist 962s helped me get away, to a certain extent, with a thinned 5 iron. I was really shocked during my first round with them. I hit a poor shot (I think it was actually a 4 iron and the clubs were 962bs) and it finished up on the front of the green...

Is Pro Tools the big-headed driver of the recording industry?  Maybe the sand wedge?
 ;D

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2007, 02:15:48 PM »
Quote
There have been numerous innovations that have made it possible to attain certain guitar SOUNDS that might have required a more substantial investment in times past.


Lloyd, I suspect you mean and 'investment' in cost of the equipment.  But, could you mean an investment in time to learn and master the instrument at a higher level? Because, that would be what I am noodling around about in this whole question of H.T. effect on mastering the making of shots in golf and virtuosity in music.  

I guess another thing in H.T. golf equipment, and even H.T. swing study photography and metrics is that most younger tour players now have a very similar swing method and style that follows a coached model that is generated by the H.T. ability to study and refine the elements of the swing to the most minute degree.  Whereas, the old masters of the game (the virtuosos) often had hand crafted swings that were more unique and varied in methods they used to achieve various ball and ground action, with clubs that were obviously lunkers and less predictable in performance.

And Mark, I would like to think that your observations of venues effecting the quality of the sound for the choir, thus the pure enjoyment of the feedback of the performance in a classic old church has quite a bit of similarity that I think many of us here on GCA seek in the feedback on the old classic golf courses.  I think there is a direct feedback and pleasure to the player who relishes the varied creative game on a course with great ground structure.  By the same token, H.T. influenced - modern course design - steps over the old game and minimizes the learned virtuosity of the clever shot maker of the past.

Lloyd, I'm sure it is equally enjoyable as a fan of golf or music to witness the making of a 62!  ;) ;D 8)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 02:17:13 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2007, 02:41:36 PM »
RJ, Analogies are only partially useful.  I have to say that there are some fabulous modern concert halls out there with acoustics every bit as good as the Musikverein in Vienna and with great sight lines for the audience and excellent public transport, easy media access etc.  

One thing we know for sure is that in the 100+ years over which voices have been recorded there have always been superb voices, great artists and superb performers.  What I would say is that orchestral standards have come on a long way!  

Of course technology changes - the whole nature of recording has changed since the trumpet direct to wax disc.  Some would say that some of the modern microphones are not as beautiful in tone as the old acoustic ribbon mics, now largely unusable because of all the interference they pick up.

I think instrumental technique has probably improved - Rachmaninov, Scriabin, Liszt and co hold terrors for today's 18-year old students.  Boys voices probably break a little younger than they did 100 years ago, but I teach postgraduate students and male voices, in particular, are maturing later than they did 30 years ago.  You need to be around 30 to get into any of the London conservatoires asa male postgraduate singer - 23 or 24 will probably be the norm for a female voice.

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2007, 02:54:04 PM »
Loyds currently rockin da Dublin stage. ;D

My parents would have went to the concert if it was at the weekend.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2007, 03:14:40 PM »
Mark, do you use some sort of spectrographic equipment to analyze the quality and maturation of students inorder to bring a voice along faster, or more precisely than could have been done 50-100 years ago.  I'd have to think H.T. is much better for that sort of training to become a virtuoso.

What B&I do you use, and which course do you enjoy most, that you can play basically when you wish - not a course where you get once in a lifetime chance to play?  Do you think of yourself as a strategy player and shot maker or do you enjoy more of a long power driver and aerial approach player?  Are your attitudes towards use of H.T. in music and golf the same, dissimilar or totally unrelated?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2007, 04:04:56 PM »
i was in my home library and happened to read this very much related article "guitar hero"  My home library has one seat, a sink , and a shower.
 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16720931/site/newsweek/

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2007, 04:56:37 PM »
Quote
What's more, as digital technology becomes deeply integrated into "real" instruments, we can expect the shortcuts to virtuosity that we see in Guitar Hero to become commonplace in music. "One of the issues that musical instruments have is that they're difficult to learn," says Henry Juszkiewicz, CEO of Gibson Guitar, which is aggressively integrating computer technology into new product lines. "Building calluses and painstakingly learning all the musical fingering is not creative, but is the discipline to get the creative rewards ... In the future we want to reduce the crap you have to deal with to allow people access to that creativity."

Thanks Race Track George ( If that is your REAL name!  ;) ;D 8) )  The synchronicity of your locating that article is similar to our friend Dan Kelly's use of the "Baader Meinhof Syndrome" where something you are talking or thinking about comes up in another venue unexpectedly, like you "library"  ;D :o 8)

That article and quote above is very much what I was getting at.  Can the same advances in high tech manufacture of B&I lead to shortcuts to virtuosity of really playing the game?  Or, because like the Guitar Hero is really some way of accessing a real guitar artists recordings of playing various complex sounds via a shortcut, has this made a mockery of the discipline it takes to be a real virtuoso?

Pipeline Moe Norman would practice his shot making until his hands bled.  He was a virtuoso striker of the ball.  Just like the great guitarists bleed and develope callouses to attain the stamina to perform.  Where is the validity in all this?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question to Lloyd, the performance artist and golf enthusiast.
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2007, 03:20:34 PM »
Listened to one Loyds songs "Beautiful Skin" and it was Decent.