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JNC Lyon

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Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2007, 11:57:08 PM »
People have asked what the harm is in reducing carbon emissions.  I believe this has been seen with businesses like the auto industry.  Requiring companies to conduct their business to fit the questionable ideas of environmentalists doesn't make sense for the economy.  

Is global warming a possible phenomenon? Certainly.  Is it likely to have a huge impact? Probably not. Has there been consistent evidence of existence? Not as far as I can tell.  Recent "tell-tale signs" of big storms (there were none in 2006) and warm temperatures (record lows in the Midwestern United States) seem to have gone by the wayside.  

I don't care if you want to drive a Prius or ride your bike 10 miles to work.  I'm just not sure it makes sense to impose environmental regulations on the basis of questionable facts.

many people have made the point that this is just a blip on the time chart, and I totally agree.  People like Al Gore and Robert Kennedy, Jr. are too caught up in themselves to realize this.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2007, 09:13:43 AM »
Not knowing is probably the best argument of all to error on the side of conserving rather than consuming.  

JC

Doug Wright

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Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2007, 02:24:55 PM »
With some trepidation of resurrecting this thread from page 3 I post this information courtesy of ABC News:
 

ABC News Obtains Draft of Landmark U.N. Climate Study

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2813490&page=1

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2007, 02:55:30 PM »
Global warming should not be a political issue any more than any other scientific driven discussion. However, there is a trend rightly or wrongly in that direction. I am pleased the RTJ Jr at least put the subject on the table.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2007, 06:16:15 PM »
For those who consider their outlook and approach as pro-business, limited regulation and market-driven, and see the global warming debate as more of a political battle than as an honest threat, there are three very good pro-business reasons to shift our behaviors to be more environmentally friendly, and all three are beneficial even if one assumes there is absolutely no global warming threat.

First, there IS a limited supply of fossil fuels, and alternative energy sources WILL be in great demand before the end of the century.  Becoming more efficient will stretch out the availability of the existing oil reserves still in the earth.

Second, typically anytime efficiency is significantly improved the economy benefits.  Much of the computer/economic boom has a lot to do with just improvements of efficiency.

Third, China and India are still young in their economic development and much of their growth in this coming century will be done by taking advantage of the latest technologies.  If we spend too long still using old technology, the US will be to China in 50 years from now, what Western Europe is to the US now and the past 1/2 century.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Cliff Hamm

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2007, 07:22:26 PM »
Resisted posting on this thread but then saw this:

Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, opened a meeting to discuss the panel’s latest report.

 


By JAMES KANTER and ANDREW C. REVKIN
Published: January 30, 2007

PARIS, Jan. 29 — Scientists from across the world gathered Monday to hammer out the final details of an authoritative report on climate change that is expected to project centuries of rising temperatures and sea levels unless there are curbs in emissions of carbon dioxide and other gases that trap heat in the atmosphere.

Scientists involved in writing or reviewing the report say it is nearly certain to conclude that there is at least a 90 percent chance that human-caused emissions are the main factor in warming since 1950. The report is the fourth since 1990 from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is overseen by the United Nations.

The report, several of the authors said, will describe a growing body of evidence that warming is likely to cause a profound transformation of the planet.

Three large sections of the report will be forthcoming during the year. The first will be a summary for policy makers and information on basic climate science, which is expected to be issued on Friday.

Among the findings in recent drafts:

¶The Arctic Ocean could largely be devoid of sea ice during summer later in the century.

¶Europe’s Mediterranean shores could become barely habitable in summers, while the Alps could shift from snowy winter destinations to summer havens from the heat.

¶Growing seasons in temperate regions will expand, while droughts are likely to ravage further the semiarid regions of Africa and southern Asia.

“Concerns about climate change and public awareness on the subject are at an all-time high,” the chairman of the panel, Rajendra Pachauri, told delegates on Monday.

But scientists involved in the effort warned that squabbling among teams and government representatives from more than 100 countries — over how to portray the probable amount of sea-level rise during the 21st century — could distract from the basic finding that a warming world will be one in which shrinking coastlines are the new normal for centuries to come.

Jerry Mahlman, an emeritus researcher at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., who was a reviewer of the report’s single-spaced, 1,644-page summary of climate science, said most of the leaks to the news media so far were from people eager to find elements that were the most frightening or the most reassuring.

He added in an interview that such efforts distracted from the basic, undisputed findings, saying that those point to trends that are very disturbing.

He noted recent disclosures that there is still uncertainty about the pace at which seas will rise because of warming and the melting of terrestrial ice over the next 100 years. That span, he said, is just the start of a rise in sea levels that will almost certainly continue for 1,000 years or so.

Many economists and energy experts long ago abandoned any expectation that it would be possible to avoid a doubling of preindustrial carbon dioxide concentrations, given the growth of human populations, use of fossil fuels, particularly coal, and destruction of forests in the tropics.

The report is likely to highlight the hazardous consequences of that shift by finding that reaching twice the preindustrial concentration of carbon dioxide will probably warm climate between 3.5 and 8 degrees Fahrenheit and by highlighting that there is a small but significant risk that such a buildup can produce even more warming.

One major point of debate in early drafts of the report is the projection of a smaller rise in sea level than the last report as scientists relying on computer models and field observations struggle to find a consensus. Some scientists say that the figures used in the coming report are not recent enough because they leave out recent observations of instability in some ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland.

Another possible point of contention during the four days of closed sessions in Paris this week may be assertions in early drafts of the report that the recent warming rate was blunted by particle pollution and volcanic eruptions.

Some scientists say the final report should reflect the assumption that the rate of warming in coming years is likely to be more pronounced than that of previous decades.

Achim Steiner, the executive director of the United Nations Environment Program, said the findings presented Friday should lead decision makers to accelerate efforts to slash carbon emissions and to help people in vulnerable parts of the world prepare for climate change.

“These findings should strengthen the resolve of governments to act now to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and put in place the medium- to longer-term strategies necessary to avert dangerous climate change,” Mr. Steiner said.

In a new report issued Monday, his agency said the most recent evidence from mountain glaciers showed that they were melting faster than before.

In the past year, international concern over what to do about global warming has grown along with concrete signs of climate change. Even so, political leaders are still groping for ways to tackle the phenomenon. Europe has adopted a program that caps the amount of emissions from industrial plants.

But the world’s largest emitter, the United States, still is debating whether to adopt a similar policy, while developing countries like China are resisting caps on the ground that the industrialized countries contributed about 75 percent of the current volume of greenhouse gases and should make the deepest cuts.

Many experts involved in the intergovernmental panel’s process said there was hope that with a prompt start on slowing emissions, the chances of seeing much greater warmth and widespread disruption of ecosystems and societies could be reduced.

Outside experts agreed.

“We basically have three choices: mitigation, adaptation and suffering,” said John Holdren, the president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and an energy and climate expert at Harvard. “We’re going to do some of each. The question is what the mix is going to be. The more mitigation we do, the less adaptation will be required and the less suffering there will be.”
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Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2007, 07:23:44 PM »
I would pay to attend a debate between Rich Goodale and Mark Bourgeois.  I can't believe we didn't organize one at Hoylake!  8)

Global warming is fascinating indeed - from the little I've read I gather the average annual temperature is up less than one degree in the past 100 years.

Matt Kardash

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2007, 07:35:09 PM »
I would pay to attend a debate between Rich Goodale and Mark Bourgeois.  I can't believe we didn't organize one at Hoylake!  8)

Global warming is fascinating indeed - from the little I've read I gather the average annual temperature is up less than one degree in the past 100 years.


0.6 degrees celcius, to be exact. Which is a lot considering the difference between an ice age and an inter-glacial period is around 5 degrees celcius
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2007, 07:36:41 PM »


Scientists charge White House pressure on warming
By Deborah Zabarenko, Environment Correspondent 2 hours, 51 minutes ago


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. scientists were pressured to tailor their writings on global warming to fit the Bush administration's skepticism, in some cases at the behest of a former oil-industry lobbyist, a congressional committee heard on Tuesday.

"Our investigations found high-quality science struggling to get out," Francesca Grifo of the watchdog group Union of Concerned Scientists told members of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

A survey by the group found that 150 climate scientists personally experienced political interference in the past five years, for a total of at least 435 incidents.

"Nearly half of all respondents perceived or personally experienced pressure to eliminate the words 'climate change,' 'global warming' or other similar terms from a variety of communications," Grifo said.

Rick Piltz, a former U.S. government scientist who said he resigned in 2005 after pressure to soft-pedal findings on global warming, told the committee in prepared testimony that former White House official Phil Cooney took an active role in casting doubt on the consequences of global climate change.

Cooney, who was a lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute before becoming chief of staff at the White House Council on Environmental Quality, resigned in 2005 to work for oil giant ExxonMobil.

Documents on global climate change required Cooney's review and approval, Piltz said.

"His edits of program reports, which had been drafted and approved by career science program managers, had the cumulative effect of adding an enhanced sense of scientific uncertainty about global warming and minimizing its likely consequences," Piltz said.

Rep. Henry Waxman (news, bio, voting record), a California Democrat who chairs the committee, complained that the White House has balked at supplying documents requested over six months to investigate these allegations.

"The committee isn't trying to obtain state secrets or documents that could affect our immediate national security," Waxman said. "We are simply seeking answers to whether the White House's political staff is inappropriately censoring impartial government scientists."

Kristen Hellmer of the Council on Environmental Quality said the council had been cooperating with Congress. When asked about allegations of political interference in scientific documents, she said, "We do have in place a very transparent system in science reporting."

The hearing was one of two on Tuesday spotlighting global climate change; a Senate forum featured testimony from members including presidential hopefuls Hillary Clinton of New York and Barack Obama (news, bio, voting record) of Illinois among Democrats and Republican John McCain (news, bio, voting record) of Arizona.

President George W. Bush's position on global warming has evolved over his presidency, from open skepticism about the reality of the phenomenon to acknowledgment at a global summit last year that climate change is occurring and human activities speed it up.

In his State of the Union address on January 23, Bush called climate change "a serious challenge" that should be addressed by technology and greater use of alternative sources of energy. But he stopped short of calling for mandatory limits on U.S. emissions of carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas blamed in part for global warming.

These discussions are part of the run-up to release of a major United Nations report on climate change, scheduled for Friday in Paris. Drafts of the report strengthened the case that humans are the principal cause of global warming after 1950.

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2007, 08:20:22 PM »
I would pay to attend a debate between Rich Goodale and Mark Bourgeois.  I can't believe we didn't organize one at Hoylake!  8)

Global warming is fascinating indeed - from the little I've read I gather the average annual temperature is up less than one degree in the past 100 years.


0.6 degrees celcius, to be exact. Which is a lot considering the difference between an ice age and an inter-glacial period is around 5 degrees celcius

I wasn't saying it isn't a problem, just that it's a really small number to demonstrate such a large potential problem.

It's interesting that addressing climate change by reducing fossil fuel emissions also addresses our equally serious problem, declining petroleum reserves ("peak oil").  Two birds with one stone so to speak!

John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2007, 09:16:32 PM »
In addition, Bill, by conserving we could weaken the political power that some of our least favorite OPEC countries (Venezuela and Iran, for instance) currently possess.

It's such a strange game.  Last week, I read an article that basically said Saudi Arabia was sticking it to Iran by maintaining its output.  Today, I read the price of oil is up because Saudi Arabia is reducing its output.  Sometimes you just don't know what to believe, but it's safe to say each country puts its own interests first.

Gee, we could save more oil for future generations by conserving now, too.

Last thing.  Remember the growing hole in the ozone layer?  They linked the problem to CFC use, eliminated them, and now it looks like that problem is well on its way to being fixed.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2007, 02:38:59 PM »
Newt Gingrich quote:

Gingrich said he accepts there is a general consensus among scientists that Earth has gotten warmer over the last century and that humans have contributed to that problem, conceding that his views might not find favor with some of his fellow conservatives.

But the former GOP speaker said he believes the best way to solve the problem is to unleash the spirit of American entrepreneurship, not the power of government. That means using tax credits and other incentives to encourage the development of technology to reduce carbon emissions, rather than capping them by government decree.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/10/gingrich.kerry/index.html
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Rick Shefchik

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2007, 04:24:57 PM »
With each springtime snowfall and sub-freezing day in April (such as today, April 11, in Stillwater, MN), I experience diminished interest in battling global warming.

No science here, just human emotion.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Doug Ralston

Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2007, 06:26:38 PM »

 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
 :-X
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 :-X

I was told to stop the politics. Why weren't YOU?

Doug

Willie_Dow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2007, 08:25:24 PM »
Mike - What effect will global warming have on bunkers ?

John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2007, 08:31:48 PM »
Willie,

At a few hundred degrees Celsius, the sand will melt into a smooth glassy surface.  In these temperatures, the ball will fly a long way, and merely bounce high off the bunker surfaces.

JNC Lyon

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2007, 10:09:45 PM »
I wish global warming would kick in here in New York so we could play golf in something less than an outfit made for the Iditarod.

Doug Ralston:
As a liberal, I would think you might support free speech, but I guess I was mistaken.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

astavrides

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2007, 09:41:55 AM »
wouldnt unleashing tax credits and other incentives also be using the power of government?

Newt Gingrich quote:

Gingrich said he accepts there is a general consensus among scientists that Earth has gotten warmer over the last century and that humans have contributed to that problem, conceding that his views might not find favor with some of his fellow conservatives.

But the former GOP speaker said he believes the best way to solve the problem is to unleash the spirit of American entrepreneurship, not the power of government. That means using tax credits and other incentives to encourage the development of technology to reduce carbon emissions, rather than capping them by government decree.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/10/gingrich.kerry/index.html

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2007, 03:10:03 PM »
I took the global warming quiz and failed

http://thequiz.sitecrafting.com/

Sam Morrow

Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2007, 03:18:13 PM »
All I have to say about the global warming thing is that this past Saturday we had snow 55 miles south of Dallas.

Doug Ralston

Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2007, 04:55:01 PM »
Doug Ralston:
As a liberal, I would think you might support free speech, but I guess I was mistaken.

WTF?!?

It was ME who has been censored, more than once, on this site. I am utterly for freedom of information, and responsibility for your output!

Thank you for acknowledging that it IS liberals who are likely to suppost civil liberties!

Try to recognize the sarcasm of my many 'closed mouth' smileys. I was litterally asking why others CAN talk politics here, whereas I cannot without censorship.

Again, as this is a private site, the owner/controller has every right to censor here. I think it utterly wrong to do so, but my opinion does not matter.

If it is unclear, I shall state explicitly: I am not happy to be censored, or for anyone else to be!

Doug

Phil Benedict

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2007, 05:04:09 PM »
Maybe it's time to delete this thread, which I guess I can do.  Any comments?

Robert Thompson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2007, 05:24:58 PM »
I often wonder when talking about global warming what the actual big deal is about cutting emissions and such. Even if the "whack jobs" (as the good doctor calls them) who are proponents of global warming are wrong, what is so bad about their proposed solutions? Less polution? I guess that's something most of us can't really get behind. Way too extreme a viewpoint apparently.

Bringing this back to golf, I just finished a piece on erosion for a major publication. In the piece I interviewed the architect behind Crowbush Cove, the seaside course in Prince Edward Island. He said they were able to build seaside holes because aerial photos clearly demonstrated there had been no coastal changes in over 70 years.

Suddenly, after the golf course was built, the coast line to the north stopped freezing over. The ice had been the protection from storms, but once that disappeared, the course got pounded. A whole dune complex was swept out to sea. Call it climate change, or global warming -- but something changed dramatically in a few years.

Start talking to the seaside Scottish courses and you'll hear similar stories about more weather patterns changing, more frequent storms and lack of coastal policies, and you'll see a bunch of courses -- from Dornoch, to Montrose, to the Old Course, all have significant erosion issues, many of which are related to changing weather trends.

Of course, making changes in North America won't matter if China continues to ramp up the polution. However, I can't see how we can comment on the quickly developing issue there if we don't clean up ourselves.

From a U.S. perspective, wouldn't a change in fossil fuel emissions be good? Do you guys really want to depend on Saudi oil forever?
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2007, 11:37:08 PM »
 8)

talk about carbon footprints, tsk tsk Mother Nature!!!



300 tons a day from one small volcanic area.. killing trees

read more at
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs172-96/

how inconvenient that mother nature is perhaps the largest uncontrollable source of warming and cooling influences.. man is insignificant.. like bacteria on a golf ball..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming
« Reply #99 on: April 12, 2007, 11:47:43 PM »
Phil,

Please put this sorry thread out of its misery.