Who’s the next minimalist?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Who’s the next minimalist?

Who out there can build great golf courses that don’t require 8 figure construction budgets, 7 figure maintenance budgets and “perfect” turf to be considered great?

Lately it seems like the modern architects we speak so highly of because they made their mark building great golf courses with incredible economy and talent have gravitated to building mostly high-end projects.
Are we to assume that they are never approached to build a lower-end course…that’s tough to believe…or is it because they only choose to work on great sites? In some cases that argument may be credible, in others not so much.
 
What does seem true is the C & C/Doaks of the world have risen into the rarified big money air previously only occupied by the likes of Nicklaus, Fazio and a Jones or two.

Lacey edged golf courses that have ragged-edged bunkers with the occasional cactus type plant planted on the lip are not minimalism when the rest of the golf course is a mono-color green with Astroturf-like texture. Golf needs some up and comers who can build with local materials and create great golf courses with sustainable golfing turf that can maintained with some economic sensibility.

Who’s the next minimalist…and what can we do to get them some work?

[Gary_Mahanay]

What about the Nuzzo - Mahaffey collaboration at Wolf Point Club?  From reading Mike's website it sure sounds like you have more than just a little input into how things get done.  I understand that Mike's pretty handy with all the GPS stuff but wouldn't that place not be considered minimalist?  Didn't yall find the sand for the greens mix on site?  Not that that would be the overwelming factor to make you and Mike minimalist designers.

[Ian Andrew]

Don,

Shouldn't the question now be what's next, since so many others (Fazio and Nicklaus Group included) have embraced at least the aesthetic commonly associated with minimalism, if not the entire concept as a whole.

[Jordan Wall]

Trent Jones or whoever is doing Chambers Bay..

?

[Mike Erdmann]

Is Chambers Bay really a minimalist course, or does it just have the minimalist look, ala Kingsbarns?

[Jeff Doerr]

I think Ian has the question right. Minimalist is a great guiding concept, but is it always the right "style" for the land?

Is the ragged bunker, rumpled fairway look always desired? Is it a trend that is done too often in wrong settings?

[Michael Dugger]

Mike Erdmann hit the nail on the head here.

Minimalism is not to be confused with naturalism.

Sure Pac Dunes and Kingsbarns might look equally rugged and in harmony with nature, but they underwent a vastly different process from beginning to end.

The Chambers Bay project does not look minimalist to me, that's for sure, it looks utterly manufactured like Whistling Straits and Kingsbarns.

Minimalism works best with a piece of land that is capable of great golf.  Thus, what really matters is what template are you starting with?  Bandon Dunes property....great natural template

Kingsbarns.....not such a great natural template.

Texas Tech....a flat field in the middle of nowhere.

Whistling Straits.....nice waterfront, featureless site.

The next minimalist architect is the person who gets a great piece of land which they can tread upon lightly.

Which Gil Hanse and Mike Devries are already doing.

 

[Ian Andrew]

Micheal,

For Gil, are you refering to the site under construction, which is a massive earth moving excercise like Kingsbarns, or a course not under construction like The Prairie Club?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Are we just better at moving a lot of dirt now? We take projects where we have enough resources to have an army of workers to do all the hand work required to tie it back in so most never know we were there. Just make sure you post a guard at the gate so you don't have any before and after pictures and no one will ever know that the small valleys the course plays through are entirely manmade.
We spend millions making sure we have an extensive drainage system, we import only the best of growing mediums and we build the most extensive irrigation system possible.
Now, that all may be quite a construction and engineering feat, but just because we can fix the edges to make it all look natural doesn’t mean it’s great golf course architecture.
Are we getting any better on the architecture side or can we just build and maintain ‘em better now?
Am I the only one who is starting to get bored by all these high dollar golf club developments?

[Tom_Doak]

Don:

Now THAT's a better question.

What has gone relatively unnoticed about Bill Coore's work or my work is our approach to construction.  Like our mentor Pete Dye, on every job we have two or three or six or eight guys out on the construction site who are experienced at building courses and love the work and have spent a bunch of time learning about design and construction.  That part has very little to do with "minimalism" but a lot to do with our success.  (And it's what makes a project like The Rawls Course possible for me to build, as opposed to High Pointe which I could and did do mostly on my own.)

But, Ian is also right.  The next minimalist can only be #3 (or #5) on the minimalist depth chart for the next few years, unless Bill and I start selling out and taking "big-dollar" projects over projects with potential.  To really attract attention, you're going to have to come up with a different twist on it ... it doesn't have to be something original, so much as something which others aren't doing now.

[Mike_Young]

Are we just better at moving a lot of dirt now? We take projects where we have enough resources to have an army of workers to do all the hand work required to tie it back in so most never know we were there. Just make sure you post a guard at the gate so you don't have any before and after pictures and no one will ever know that the small valleys the course plays through are entirely manmade.
We spend millions making sure we have an extensive drainage system, we import only the best of growing mediums and we build the most extensive irrigation system possible.
Now, that all may be quite a construction and engineering feat, but just because we can fix the edges to make it all look natural doesn’t mean it’s great golf course architecture.
Are we getting any better on the architecture side or can we just build and maintain ‘em better now?
Am I the only one who is starting to get bored by all these high dollar golf club developments?

Don,
I don't think you are the only getting bored with these high $$$ developments BUT.....
from my side of the business people almost always equate lower $$$ with less quality.  I have instances where we were elimnated because we gave a lower price......however if one had looked at price it was not necessarily lower it just did not include the "extensive irrigation" or necessary "subair" etc that so many supts now say they have to have.  So from your side of the business you have to understand how perception rules this business.  So many guys on your side can make it look as though you are the "cheap" guy.  Funny thing is how much some of these "necessary" elements can cost an owner when they are not needed.  
Mike

[JMorgan]

Q: Is subair that much better than traditional aeration?

[Mike_Young]

Q: Is subair that much better than traditional aeration?

James,
I don't think the "subair" is considered an aerifier.  It supposedly helps place oxygen into the subsurface......BUT then again you may be right...that is aerification .......

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
I just want to see more golf courses built with the Apache Stronghold model. (Preferably for a different client)

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mike,
There's no doubt that we Supers want all the tools (and toys) we can get our hands on. And there's also no doubt  the golf courses that spend more on maintenance pay their supers better...just as I'm sure the design fee for a $10M project is higher then that for a $4M project. I hate it, I think it's backwards...but until it changes, overspending is a career development tool.

[Mike_Young]

Don,
That is a good way to say it.
for instance in my area you will see a green committee at one club use the same contractor as another club and actually negotiate the price...say for greens rebuild.....if club "A" paid $50,000 per green then club "B" usually has no problem paying $55,000 per green and sq footage may not even come into play.  But it does 2 things for the club.....the committee will never be chastised for spending less than the club down the street and the supt can tell everyone he is using the "in" contractor at the time....now this is not to say the work will not be excellent...just to say that spending more is a CYA for most involved....."signature" has definitely crept into the contractor ranks......and when you  use your own guys as TD describes it is viewed as though something is missing.  

[Jordan Wall]

Mike Erdmann hit the nail on the head here.

Minimalism is not to be confused with naturalism.

Sure Pac Dunes and Kingsbarns might look equally rugged and in harmony with nature, but they underwent a vastly different process from beginning to end.

The Chambers Bay project does not look minimalist to me, that's for sure, it looks utterly manufactured like Whistling Straits and Kingsbarns.

Minimalism works best with a piece of land that is capable of great golf.  Thus, what really matters is what template are you starting with?  Bandon Dunes property....great natural template

Kingsbarns.....not such a great natural template.

Texas Tech....a flat field in the middle of nowhere.

Whistling Straits.....nice waterfront, featureless site.

The next minimalist architect is the person who gets a great piece of land which they can tread upon lightly.

Which Gil Hanse and Mike Devries are already doing.

 

Michael,

I think you are right as far as the Chambers Bay project goes.
But, do you think that, with the work Jones has done on that site, he may end up being a minimalist?

Your point about Pac. Dunes vs. Kingsbarns makes a lot of sense.

Just wondering, do you like how the Chambers Bay project is turning out?
It may not be minimalist but I love the look, and the ragged bunkers and everything.

[Jeff Doerr]

Maybe it will be the course that Jordan builds in 2019 that will start the next wave of innovation in the industry!  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Are we just better at moving a lot of dirt now? We take projects where we have enough resources to have an army of workers to do all the hand work required to tie it back in so most never know we were there. We spend millions making sure we have an extensive drainage system, we import only the best of growing mediums and we build the most extensive irrigation system possible.
Are we getting any better on the architecture side or can we just build and maintain ‘em better now?

I suggest using the word "industry" in stead of we, otherwise some will think that we (you and I) are doing some of that "we" stuff, which we aren't.

To respond to Mike Young's suggestion to not get pigeon holed into low budget projects....

Our course construction budget is astronomical and the membership fee is ineffable.

[Adam_F_Collins]

I'd like to see a guy get famous for building really fun muni's.

Shack for a clubhouse, three sets of tees, no computer-controlled irrigations systems, no carts, no ocean vistas, no romantic locale, no 5 star accommodations, no PGA star associations, small greens with subtle contours (I'm sick of 'grande undulations'), fewer bunkers, no white sand, absolutely NO reference to Augusta National, no waterfalls, no island green, no funky flags or 'neat granite signs', The Red White and Blue system of yardage marking and flag positions, no special attempt to eliminate blind shots, no mention of "championship tests", or "playability" or "fairness to all levels of golfer", no driving range and no frigging "short game practice facility".

Let's play some G.

How's that for minimal?

[RJ_Daley]

My own subjective definition of minimalist is a relationship between the land, the client, and the architect and the architect.constructor treading lightly on the land and the client.  

Everything is by degrees.  Some might say that BallyNeal is minimalist.  I know it is more land manipulation than some think.  Sand Hills seems to be a landmark or jumping off place for the definition of minimalist.  So is Wild Horse.  

These all had specific land facilities that were conducive to minimalism, to what ever degree.

Perhaps minimalism, is the ability of the design/builder to actually produce an interesting and maintainable golf venue at the least impact to the client's pocket book.  Doesn't that get down to how long can the design/builder live on sight and sustain himself on bologna sandwiches and cans of soup?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
I think you just described Western Gails...sort of, but there are some ocean vistas and maybe it's a romantic locale to some.
But I'm with you...and the really hard part is convincing potential golf developers that it's worth paying someone really good a fee that's a large % of the overall budget.
I'd like to see the best and the brightest make a great living building all types of golf courses...not just the high end privates with huge budgets.

Mike,
I use the term "we"...as "we" in the golf business. I don't like the term industry...because sure to follow is terms like "industry standards" and then I get sick.

To all...I speak for myself and those I work with now or those I've worked with in the past...may or may not share my opinions.  

[Jeff Doerr]

Isn't minimalism basically the sense that you play the course and feel like it has always been there?  

The old, "God created this property for golf...all we did was mow some grass (or even play where the sheep had groomed the way for us)..."

[Gary_Mahanay]

Mike Nuzzo says, " Our course constuction budget is astronomical and the membership fee is ineffable "

That one sent me to the dictionary,  ineffable - 1)  too overwhelming to be expressed or described in words;  inexpressible  2)  too awesome or sacred to be spoken

How's the irrigation installation coming at Wolf Point Club?  The decoder system eliminates those ugly satellite boxes and a whole lot of wire so this would be another minimalist star for the Nuzzo design team.

Any pictures of this decoder installation and explanation in the near future?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Gary,
I'm sensing some sarcasm.
To be clear, I'm a golf course Superintendent and I'm not associated with or employed by any design firm. My post is sincere and genuine and not part of any PR program.

As far as my current employment, my boss is a private person and has asked me to use discretion when publicly discussing his course...so no pictures from me. But if you can imagine trenches in the ground with wires and pipes then I think you can see the irrigation installation.