[Dan Moore]

I wonder if the management and design team of Old Macdonald have considered a design contest along the lines of the Country Life contest Bernard Darwin ran for Charles Macdonald which became the 18th hole at Lido.  I think this would be a fitting tribute to Macdonald, Darwin and the contest winner Alistair MacKenzie.  It would seem to me Brad Klein and Golfweek would be able to easily accommodate such a contest.  

Thoughts?  

[JESII]

The cool thing about this site is that you won't need to speculate, you can go right to the horses mouth's...

[Tom_Doak]

I am sure Mr. Keiser would consider that.  I'll have to think if I would, though!  (And I'm sure some of the collaborators would like to have their own shot at it.)

Jim Urbina was out there over the past week trying to figure out what of the gorse should be cleared first so we can walk more of the site than is presently possible.  He said he was surprised at the amount of topography on the inland side of the dune where the first and last holes will go.

[Joe Bentham]

Tom--
Is there an initial routing done?  When you refer to the inland side of the dune as the starting and finishing point does that mean that the remainder will be in the meadow east of 14/15 at pac?  I had been under the assumption that the majority of the course would be on the inland side of the dune.  To the untrained eye the property due east of 14/15 at pac looks rather mundane by Bandon standards.  Looks like the meadow that 15/3/12 and 4 occupy @ PAC IMO....

[Adam_F_Collins]

I am sure Mr. Keiser would consider that.  I'll have to think if I would, though!  

Tom:

• Why would you?
• Why wouldn't you?

A

[Tom Jefferson]

Joe;    The area east of the ridge dune is much smaller than the area between the dune and 14/15 at Pac...so that fact alone suggests much of the routing will be west of the ridge.

Also, there are alot of bumps and swales there....the portions that the fire in 2000 exposed reveal that, and a good look at the nearby gorse-covered land throughout that area suggests the same general topography.  

Not to the scale of the eastside, however, as TD suggests.

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

I have done a preliminary routing for Old Macdonald, but the word "preliminary" means what it says ... it could be close to the finished routing, or it could be way different.

However, unless Mr. Keiser changes his mind, the clubhouse will be in the future Madrone Village (north of the practice facility on the inland side of the dune), so the first and last 2-3 holes will be east of the dune, and the rest of it will be out on the land you see from Pacific Dunes.  And the land out there is not as flat as you think ... gorse tends to make everything look flatter than it is.  You see some more of the topo from the 17th tee at Pacific, looking down past the green.  The topo is not as dramatic as Pacific Dunes, but you could easily compare it to, say, Prestwick.

Adam:

Why wouldn't I consider a "contest winner" design for one of the holes in Bandon?  First and foremost, I wouldn't want to commit to using anyone's idea without being sure we could adapt it to the style of our course and to the specifics of the site.  (If I couldn't find a good place to put a Redan out there, I might not build one of those, either, but the nice thing about the Redan is it's a relatively simple concept to follow ... unlike say Dr. MacKenzie's prize-winning design.)

The other thing about a contest winner is you have to consider what you are giving up to build it.  Macdonald had some pretty good golf holes in his quiver.  Would the contest winner be better than the Bottle hole, or the 16th at Littlestone that Macdonald adapted for Lido?  I've been asked to put my own ego aside and be comfortable with sticking to Macdonald's ideas ... and I can do that in homage to C.B. Macdonald, but why would we want to introduce someone else's ego into the picture?  We've got plenty of those on board already!

[Dan Moore]

As George Bahto put it in the Evangelist, in asking Darwin and Hutchinson to run the contest in Country Life Macdonald realized his "stereotyped style needed an infusion of ideas on occasion."   Bahto also noted Macdonald was keenly aware of the publicity the contest would create for the project.  I would think the winning hole would by definition have to fit the style of the course and site restrictions.  On the other hand I can certainly understand not wanting to compromise the integrity or quality of the golf holes or dilute the concept of paying homage to Macdonald.  Macdonald apparently wasn't willing to compromise the quality of the course either as he significantly altered Mackenzie's winning submission by eliminating 2 of the 5 alternate route options.   As it was Macdonald's idea initially to run the contest, it certainly would be consistent with applying Macdonald's ideas to the course to hold a contest and adapt the winner to the project.  

Thanks for considering.
 

[Adam_F_Collins]

...I would think the winning hole would by definition have to fit the style of the course and site restrictions...Macdonald apparently wasn't willing to compromise the quality of the course either as he significantly altered Mackenzie's winning submission by eliminating 2 of the 5 alternate route options.   As it was Macdonald's idea initially to run the contest, it certainly would be consistent with applying Macdonald's ideas to the course to hold a contest and adapt the winner to the project...

I agree. While I can understand a desire to avoid the 'pain in the ass' that the logistics could create, a contest could be run with the stipulation that:

A) There doesn't have to be a winner, and
B) The winning entry might only provide a 'concept' or 'inspiration' for one of the final holes.

Perhaps a golf publication could use such contest as a way to educate people about MacDonald. An article could be compiled, showing famous holes and illustrating key concepts that would provide a framework for design thinking when combined with site information about Bandon, (topos, etc.) What better way to truly honor an "Evangelist"?

I know that for most armchair architects, just being associated with such a project would be prize enough to satisfy their ego. Especially if it is described that way at the outset.

In the end, the winner gets a line in the annals of history that says, "Joe Blow provided the basic concept of this hole by winning a contest."

OR

A line reads "We got a number of interesting ideas, but in the end, nothing really worked for the site and the overall flow of the course."

[Jeff Doerr]

Very interesting idea!

I like the historic thread that could be woven in to the development of the course through the braintrust that is already in place. The inclusion of the contest would get people to look back even more to the genius that was active in the golden age.

Really just wanted to second (third) the ideas presented by Dan and Adam in the last two posts.

[Adam_F_Collins]

What makes a contest interesting isn't the winning, it's the CHANCE to win.

[RJ_Daley]

But, if we are talking about an homage to Old Mac, then the concept and inspiration is already there in the 28 or so template holes.  If you don't interpret a hole design from the templates in the spirit of concept and inspiration, then you aren't really doing an homage, are you?  

Most folks that study GCA can to some degree draw a concept-template holes from their understanding of their study of C.B. having read Bahto's book.  But, fitting a concept hole into the terrain that exists, along with figuring it out in the proper sequence to routing and then getting the drainage and irrigation scheme in synch with the rest of the course design, is more difficult.  Then, designing the hole in a minimalist manner, and not just blowing up the parcel to fit your concept hole on the land isn't probably the approach that TD wants to take...

[Adam_F_Collins]

But, if we are talking about an homage to Old Mac, then the concept and inspiration is already there in the 28 or so template holes.  If you don't interpret a hole design from the templates in the spirit of concept and inspiration, then you aren't really doing an homage, are you?

An homage can be done in a variety of ways, Rj. This would only add another one.

[Dan Moore]

An homage can be done in a variety of ways, Rj. This would only add another one.

But, if we are talking about an homage to Old Mac, then the concept and inspiration is already there in the 28 or so template holes.  If you don't interpret a hole design from the templates in the spirit of concept and inspiration, then you aren't really doing an homage, are you?

Dick,

 I think you raise a valid point.  Is it really an homage to Old Mac if you don't use one of "his" holes as templates?  I certainly respect this view and would understand if they decide to stick to Mac's ideas and template holes.  

However, I think Mac answered this himself in Scotland's Gift when he described the contest.  "I realized it was not wise to have all the holes on this wonderful layout be duplicates of the holes I had on my other courses."  This motivated him to ask Bernard Darwin to the run and judge the contest.  If Mac didn't want to keep repeating himself and was open to and actively sought out new and interesting ideas why should the team at Old Mac feel constained to limit themselves solely to Mac's ideas and template holes.  In addition I think a contest, since it was Mac's idea in the first place, is in and of itself a homage.  

One of the cool things about the Country Life contest was the fact they received submissions from such notable up and coming architects as Mackenzie and Tom Simpson.  Could a contest today attract submissions from today's up and coming new talent?  I think it would be exciting to see submissions from Mike Devries, Dave Esler and Tim Liddy just to mention few fellow Midwesterners who participate here on GCA.  

[peter_p]

Tom Doak,
   Remember when the 14th at Pacific was a contourless void on your routing plan. The flat gorse-filled plain that became the fairways of the par 5s. Similar areas could be used in the proposed contest if it is going to be run.
   It's not as if Bandon needs to generate publicity and interest which was needed in MacDonald's times.
   

[Dan Herrmann]

Bump...

To me it's fascinating to see the construction progress, even if only in words.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Dan:

I thought I was losing my memory for a while there. I read the whole thread as I thought it was a new topic. As I read it I couldn't stop thinking to myself and asking the question: "Isn't the Old MacDonald routing settled", and "Why is Tom D talking about doing a preliminary routing for Old Macdonald?"

Then I looked at the dates!

Dónal.

[Tom_Doak]

I think we did just fine without further help.

One of the things that came up among the committee was whether to consider any of the holes from the REAL Country Life competition.  Macdonald and Raynor didn't just build a (simplified) version of MacKenzie's winning entry at Lido ... they also built a hole based on Tom Simpson's entry, and their par-4 sixth was a slightly modified version of one of the runner-up holes, which was called "Raynor's Prize Dog-leg".

George B. was excited about building one or two of those holes because they existed only at Lido.  But, I couldn't see why we should build a Simpson hole on a course which was an homage to Macdonald.  Plus, we didn't find the pefect place for any of those other holes.

[Bill Brightly]

Maybe bump this over to C & C for the new par 3 course , I am sure they would like the help!

[Jud_T]

or the future 5th course! 

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