We-Ko-Pa (Coore/Crenshaw) Review by Brad Klein

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Racetrack George

The fee structure at Saguaro/WeKoPa is no different than the fee structure at Blue Heron Pines, at least under Roger Hansen's ownership. I haven't been there under the new ownership. I walked many times at BHP using the electric power caddy option. I hope to make it to WeKoPa in February when I'm visiting AZ.

[Brad Klein]

I would have jumped in sooner, but unlike most of you I have to work for a living and had things to attend to. If I had gotten in sooner, I would have marveled at how nice it is to see a thread develop some continuity and momentum -- then JVB had to ruin it. Oh well.

As John Kirk obviously now sees, my review of We-Ko-Pa's Saguaro Course didn't ever claim the site was flat. Not with 90+ feet of elevation change (low point is 5th tee; high point is 16th green). I was referring to C&C's temperament and their ability to do a lot with a little bit of contour. Talking Stick-North is a great example of that. So my point was that they don't need to have a lot of ground movement, nautral or artifical, to make for interesting elements. As for the contrast mode, I would classicy Dye, Engh and Fazio among those who need to build a lot in to create interest, whereas with C&C a very few feet go a long way.

I like Lloyd Cole's suggestion a lot about a specific reference to walkability and under what management conditions; I'll make that part of all future reviews. In the case of We-Ko-Pa's Saguaro Course, the answer is you can walk and carry your own at any time, and it will be very interesing to see how many golfers take them up on it.

John Kirk's perception that this is the second time in these reviews I've used my own critera (the other being C&C's Bandon Trails) isn't right, I'm sure. First, please note I've been writing 8-9 of these a year since late 2001, which makes for about 50 of these, and am often offering votes of my own at odds with what most GW raters seem to be saying -- or in any case, I'm saying what i think. I recall a 5.5 vote for C&C's Easthampton GC in 2002, for example. And I nowhere indicate here or suggest that they are (I'm paraphrasing) the best design team working these days.

I'd never make that claim of anyone. On the Modern list (since 1960) C&C currently have 7 courses, but that number is surpassed by Nicklaus, Fazio and Dye, and I don't think that takes any of them "the best" either.

So much of what a designer does has to do with the site, their approach, their budget, the contractor and the time they take. I wish more designers did what C&C do, which is to say "no" when they are not thrilled with the site. And I wish more designers took the time they do to get the routing right rather than to squeeze or hammer it in.




 

[Garland Bayley]

...
I believe courses without elevation change have one primary shortcoming.  They fail to examine the player's ability to judge elevation change when approaching the green.  I mentioned this a few months ago in a different context.  When somebody (not Patrick M.) rebutted that Pine Tree, though flat, offered a complete examination of one's skills, I decided not to belabor the point and let it go.

On the other hand, I would argue that flatter courses make better ground game courses.  Neither uphill nor downhill shots lend themselves very well to running approaches.  A flatter course can use subtle undulation to great effect.  Of course, the better player plays in the air, unless its windy.
...

This is the part I found most interesting. With the caveat of knowing I have never played in the U.K., aren't a vast number of the links courses without a significant elevation differential? As I understand it is relatively flat, does not TOC examine the whole game? Is the wind a satisfactory stand in for elevation change?

[Matt_Ward]

Can someone who has played the new We-Ko-Pa layout tell me how the layout goes beyond the manner and style of what C&C has created previously? It would also help if you can identify the other C&C courses one has played.

I will be out in AZ during the FBR Open and will be playing the course at that time.

The reason why I mention this is that far too often architects of all ranges fall back on the "tried & true" and with that you get a rendition of all the past work - save for the location of the new layout.

Frankly, I think C&C hit the ultimate home run with the likes of Sand Hills. Will future work be at that level or beyond? No one can say for certain. But I am looking forward to playing the new 18 at We-Ko-Pa to simply observe if what is there is truly beyond the manner / style of the other layouts within their portfolio I have played to date.

We shall see ...

[John Kirk]

Once again, Sand Hills seems dramatically different from the other C&C courses I've played (Friar's Head, Hidden Creek, Bandon Trails).  The fabulous rolling hills, coupled with strict minimalist design, make for a course with big, bold contours and gaping sand hazards.  I don't necessarily think their other courses should be compared to it.  In many ways, their recent designs such as Old Sandwich and We-Ko-Pa require more thought and creativity.  My opinion.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Brad

Is Saguaro now the #1 Public in AZ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Vista Verde is just down the road from We-Ko-Pa and is a much better value at $100.  It's like a C&C design with better bunkers.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

John

I've played Vista Verde and it's a good course with a good variety of holes and some interesting bunker work and greens. I played there last April and it played very fast and firm. Discounted rates are $75 at golfnow.com. It just doesn't get the press of WeKoPa.There aren't any facilities there yet. I don't remember if they even had a food/beverage cart. I don't know how the ratings came in at GW.

Steve

[Lloyd_Cole]

I would classicy Dye, Engh and Fazio among those who need to build a lot in to create interest, whereas with C&C a very few feet go a long way.

Brad

It is clear that they excel. But weren't Harbour Town and then Long Cove breakthough projects in this regard?

[John Kavanaugh]

I of course didn't pay at Vista Verde (like I ever pay) and was very much pleased with the snack kit that was included in the cart.  Peanut butter and jelly, M&M's, Chips and a granola bar.  There are no facilities which also leads to fewer crowds...It is real jewel while it remains a relative secret.

[John Kirk]

I was a little wrong on Ballyneal's acreage.  Ballyneal has 74 acres of turf versus 65 acres at We-Ko-Pa.  It's an important number for me.  All levels of players should have a chance to play the entire round without venturing into the native areas, risking a lost ball.

JK, is there a peanut butter and honey option?

[Brad Klein]

John Kavanaugh, the "relative secret" of Vista Verde is that your brother designed the place. Did he tell you I spent some time with him last Thursday at Randolph Park in Tucson?

[John Kirk]

I would classicy Dye, Engh and Fazio among those who need to build a lot in to create interest, whereas with C&C a very few feet go a long way.

Brad

It is clear that they excel. But weren't Harbour Town and then Long Cove breakthough projects in this regard?

Lloyd,

I'm not sure what this means.  I looked at some pictures of Long Cove Club to see what it looked like.

Are you saying that Pete Dye was praised by critics 25 years ago for "building in a lot" of definition, whereas we are praising Coore and Crenshaw for creating interest with subtle undulation?

John,

You are hijacking my thread!  Even Brad is talking about Vista Verde.  Maybe we should start a separate thread about it.  I read a couple of nice reviews.  No worries...not mad.  Just pointing it out.

[Joe Bentham]

John--could you elaborate on why you think Sand Hills is so different from other C&C's?  For me the only difference is the site.  They applied their style and sound fundamentals, much like they've done other places.  You describe Sand Hills as having "big, bold contours and gaping sand hazards", wich I think also describes BTs and Friar's Head pretty good.  Just wondering

[John Kirk]

Joe,

Mostly I just think it looks different.  Much more natural looking.  But in terms of the magnitude of slopes and hazards, the greenside bunker on 4 and the quarry sized pit guarding the left side of the 11th hole are simply enormous.  Both must be in excess of 25 feet deep.  Bandon Trails has one deep bunker I can think of, the greenside bunker on 13, which is about 10-12 feet below the green.  But at Sand Hills, the bunkers are all big and deep.  Toughest bunkers I've evr played, really.

Also, if you can carry the left bunker off the 16th tee, you get a huge benefit, as the ball rolls another 30-50 yards down a hill.  My recollection is a little sketchy, but I think there's a "speed slot" on both 1 and 18, where a long drive over a penal left fairway bunker is rewarded with lots of extra roll.

Friar's Head has some expansive bunkers, but they aren't THAT deep.

I would be curious to know how many cubic yards of sand and/or dirt they moved at each course.  I would guess they moved 10 times more at every other course.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I would classicy Dye, Engh and Fazio among those who need to build a lot in to create interest, whereas with C&C a very few feet go a long way.

Brad

It is clear that they excel. But weren't Harbour Town and then Long Cove breakthough projects in this regard?

Lloyd,

I'm not sure what this means.  I looked at some pictures of Long Cove Club to see what it looked like.

Are you saying that Pete Dye was praised by critics 25 years ago for "building in a lot" of definition, whereas we are praising Coore and Crenshaw for creating interest with subtle undulation?

John

I'm saying that he built two highly regarded courses on sites with almost zero elevation change. I was attempting to contradict Brad's assertion that Dye should be lumped in with other folk who need elevation change to create interest.

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Lloyd.   Sorry I misunderstood.  Obviously, Tom Fazio has transformed a couple of flat sites into undulating golf courses.  His new project in the Palm Desert area is called The Madison Club.  A friend of mine played it recently.  First of all, they dug out a massive canyon to create the contourt for the course.  This canyon comes into play on quite a few holes, and is something like 50 feet deep.  He also said the service is way, way over the top, like guys in suits offering players drinks every few holes.

Neat.

[John Kavanaugh]

John Kavanaugh, the "relative secret" of Vista Verde is that your brother designed the place. Did he tell you I spent some time with him last Thursday at Randolph Park in Tucson?

No - He doesn't fill me in on every celebrity sighting.  Nice catch on "relative secret".  I hope you had the time to tour Randolph Park with him as it may be one of the finest examples of design/engineering a guy can find.  Nothing like building a course that improves a neighborhood for golfers and non-golfers alike.

note to John Kirk:  When you pull a thread back from the second page it is a resurrection not a hijack.

[John Kirk]

JK,

By the time Vista Verde became the topic, the luster had worn off the original, and it was dying.  In retrospect, I covered too much ground with the original post, and I'll reintroduce a couple of assertions I made later.

It would be nice to honor your brother with own thread.  Do you feel Vista Verde is his best effort to date?

Thanks for resurrecting the Vista Verde thread for me.

The Other JK

 

[PThomas]

 He also said the service is way, way over the top, like guys in suits offering players drinks every few holes.

Neat.

must be a bitch of a job when it gets hot out there  

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I have no idea if Vista Verde is my brothers best effort as I still have not seen many of his courses.  I will say that it is good enough and close enough to We-Ko-Pa that they fit on the same thread rather nicely.

Given that travel is the true barrier to expanding a portfolio I always enjoy when someone points out other fine courses close to a draw.  We-Ko-Pa is without question a draw for the GCA demographic.

[Forrest Richardson]

I had the opportunity to play Saguaro yesterday and had a great time. This was my second trip — I had been there during construction. Also, I see it from the air every time I arrive into Phoenix on US Airways from points north.

It is a very "quiet" layout. Very subtle, except for a few holes on the back. I would describe it as solid C&C — however, nothing here is breakthrough. That does not mean, by any means, that it is at all bad. It really is a fun and enjoyable golf course. Many of the holes that sit into the natural desert terrain could be found at Desert Forest, the original Boulders 2nd Nine (Snyder) and other older desert layouts. Red Lawrence used the same principal at many of his holes at Desert Forest in Carefree, AZ.

I think the course deserves very high marks, especially for a Sonoran Desert layout. It bucks the trend to be overly-target like so many built in the 1980s through 1990s. The walking-allowed policy is a wonderful trend...I hope we see more of it. The bunkers are ragged and many spill into the desert at the edges.

The question I will pose it whether Saguaro will stand above the other desert courses without more holes that are truly unique and one-of-a-kind? Is the "quiet", "nestled-into-the-desert" motif enough, or does there need to be a dose of "out-of-the-mold" for a new Phoenix/Scottsdale course to capture the attention of the traveling golfer?

[Mark_Fine]

Forrest,
This may have been covered in an earlier post (I've not read them), but how does it differ/compare to their efforts at Talking Stick?
Mark

[Ryan Farrow]

Forrest I would love to play a round out there but there are only a handful of courses I would even think about spending $170 no $195 to play. As for your comment I’m not really sure what you are getting at. Are you trying to say that Talking Stick was a “breakthrough” design and you were expecting a lot more out of Saguaro?

“The question I will pose it whether Saguaro will stand above the other desert courses without more holes that are truly unique and one-of-a-kind? Is the "quiet", "nestled-into-the-desert" motif enough, or does there need to be a dose of "out-of-the-mold" for a new Phoenix/Scottsdale course to capture the attention of the traveling golfer?”

I think Phoenix could use quite a few more quiet courses especially when they are not nestled in between housing developments which seems to dominate to golfing scene here.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ryan — It is far different from Talking Stick, mainly due to the tremendous terrain at We Ko Pa. Neither of these courses have to deal with housing, which is a tremendous plus. Why do you think Phoenix needs more "quiet" designs?