[wsmorrison]

Ian,

Maybe Ran will let us post these attribution lists in the Courses by Architect section as a reference for site members and visitors.

[Mark_Fine]

I agree about the section listing the courses.  It would be nice but the problem might be, however, that there are so many architects.  It could end up being like C&W's book.  Think about how many listings there are in Whitten and Cornish's Architects of Golf?  That book is great for something like this (though like most of these kind of reference books, it has some mistakes and omissions, etc.)  

[wsmorrison]

I assumed we were going to list courses by architects from original work done by members of the site such as the one that Ian put together and the one I did.  I don't see the point listing the work of others such as Cornish and Whitten on here.  A simple reference to those sources would suffice.  No need to duplicate efforts.  I hope that lists such as Ian's and mine are more accurate than previously made and are thus worth posting.

[Dan Herrmann]

Just an idea, but have you considered putting the lists on Wikipedia?  

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne/Ian,
How do your lists compare to C&W's lists?  I was also wondering how Brad Klein's list of Ross courses compares to that of Fay's.  On quick inspection, every researcher's list seems to be different and/or uses their own/different criteria for giving credit.  That other thread here on GCA alluded to this (when and when not to give credit).  There is not set or universally accepted criteria and probably never will be.  I wonder how Philips' list of Tillie courses or Doak's of Mackenzie compares.   Maybe someone who has lots of free time should do a comparison?  Either way, that is what makes discussion fun.

Note:  I still wish someone could tell us the name of the original architect at Copake CC in NY?  All indications point to Emmet but we can't yet confirm.  Can someone post a definitive list of Emmet courses or Alfred Tull?   Hunter was another guy involved with more courses than most think.  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Dan,

I have no idea how to do it but I think that is worth doing.  I'd like to see it here first as it could lead to more hits, right?

[Dan Herrmann]

You betcha.  Wikipedia is actually pretty easy to add content to.  The concept is so good my employer (a global company with >100K employees) has its own internal Wiki.

I looked up Thompson on Wikipedia and there's a single, one sentence entry for Thompson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Thompson

There's also a link to the Stanley Thompson Society - does anybody know about it?  http://www.stanleythompson.com/theman/theman.html

[Chris Parker]

Ian,

I am excited to see this thread.  It's something I'm continually working on in my head.  Emphasis on the working, since it's probably going to be one of those things that never gets finished.  The reason for this is two-fold.  

First, there is just such a lack of documentation, we may never know for sure exactly what Thompson did on each course, or what courses he worked on for that matter.

Second, there is such a high level of subjectivity concerning exactly what constitutes a "Thompson course."  

For that reason, I've always thought it was best to break such a list down into categories such as, original design, additional 9, renovation, redesign, construction, and even high- and low-Thompson (did you coin those terms Ian?)

When I set up the list of Thompson courses on my website (please check it out and let me know what you think!) I included every course that had even been rumoured to have some Thompson connection.  

I did this for the same reasons I set the website up -- to cultivate interest in Stanley Thompson; to foster appreciation for his legacy; and lastly, and I think most importantly, to facilitate research on all aspects of his life and works.

The more research that is conducted on Thompson, the more information will be uncovered.  To that end, I think it's important to take a look at the courses that are on the fringe.  Even if they turn out to not be Thompson courses, they may lead to exciting new information.

Having said that, I wanted try to address your suspicions about
Summit
I quickly went over my copy of the 1987 edition of Summit's club history, written by Lorne Rubenstein, and found the following information:

*George Cumming and George S. Lyon did the routing of the course in 1912.  
*Construction commenced shortly afterwards, but was halted in 1914 due to the onset of the Great War.  
*The incomplete course lay dormant until the end of the war, in 1919.
*The "makeshift" course, with temporary tees and greens, officially opened on 19 July, 1919, with an exhibition match featuring George S. Lyon.
*In late 1919 or early 1920, Summit hired Stanley Thompson to develop the permanent course.
*Thompson suggested the following when he was hired:

#1: New tee, the widening of the course, and a new green.
#2: The cutting away of part of the hill in front of the green an a new green.
#3: New tee, improvements on the approach to the green, and a new green.
#4: New tee, the formation of a lake in front of the tee, the widening of the course, improving the approaches, and a new green.
#5: New tee and new green.
#6: New green.
#7: Improving the approaches to the green and a new green.
#8: An alternative tee, improving the whole fairway and approaches to the green and a new green.
#9: Improving and levelling the whole fairway and a new green.
#s 10, 11, 12: New greens.
#13: New tee and new green.
#14: New green.
#15: A new tee and cutting away a portion of the hill at the side of the green and a new green.
#16: An entirely new hole which has necessitated the cutting of a course of about eighty yards wide through the bush for a distance of about a hundred and sixty yards; the cutting away and removing of all stumps; the cutting away of a hill which was in the middle of the fairway, and the filling up of the boggy land on the fairway.  Improving the approaches to the green and a new green.
#17: A new tee, improving the approaches to the green and a new green; another entirely new hole.
#18: A new tee, improving the approaches to the green and a new green.

Rubenstein concludes that Thompson was given a mandate to take what Cumming had done and make substantial alterations and improvements.  Lorne also adds that it's clear,

"Cumming had only had the time to provide a routing before the war intervened, and that much work was yet to be done. Thompson was charged with the responsibility of designing the entire eighteen greens and most of the tees.  He also contoured fairways where needed, and improved sight lines to the holes by reworking hills and mounds."

The Summit club history also has four-page reprint of an article by Ralph Reville from the May 1920 issue of Canadian Golfer.  Reville toured the entire course while Thompson's plans were being implemented.  I can scan the pages and send them to you if you'd like Ian.

I'm also pretty sure I've read somewhere that the Cumming/Lyon layout (tees and greens) was in play while the Thompson renovations were being completed.

Hope this helps.

[Chris Parker]

I think this source should be adequate confirmation:  
www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/tape15/PQDD_0007/MQ36471.pdf

Great link, Tim!!

Thanks,

Chris

[Alan Carter]

Ian, Jasper opened on July 17th, 1925.  I do have a few photos of the course that are dated 1924, so I know golf was being played that year, but the official opening we use is in 1925.

[Ian Andrew]

Just updating right now.....

Can someone pull up Stanley Thompson's service record, it might put an end to certain claims. I no longer have a copy of The Toronto Terror.

Dave,
that's real early, like Norway Point. I've always struggled with the lack of information to confirm these courses.

Chris,
that's tough one because it would still be essentially Cummings layout renovated by Thompson.

Tim,
kudos for that information and link

Yannick,
thanks.

I've been doing this through my blog too and Dick Kirkpatrick pointed out that a Thompson course for Bayview was at another site if it existed. That may need more research.

[Chris Parker]

Ian,

The following is from The Toronto Terror:

"He never had much to say about his career as a soldier.  The Ontario Agricultural College Review of April 1915 lists him as a signaler in the 4th Brigade, Canadian Field Artillery, Canadian Expeditionary Force (C.E.F.).  His choice of the Canadian Field Artillery was not coincidental.  As far back as 1878 the OAC had formed a bettery of field artillery to give students some knowledge of gun drill and gunnery.

Watson's Note records that Stanley joined the C.E.F. at the outset of hostilities, and eventually received the 1914-1915 Star (which is now in the Golf Hall of Fame at Glen Abbey).  While serving with the Royal Canadian Artillery in France, he was mentioned in a written dispatch on April 9, 1917 for his gallant and distinguished services in the field.  This is confirmend by a certificate from the Secretary of State for War that is dated March 1, 1919, to No. 83024, Gunner S. Thompson, 4th Brigade, and by the Military List of the Dominion of Canada.

Stanley Thompson, of the Canadian Field Artillery, was given the temporary rank of Lieutenant on January 20th, 1917, while serving with the C.E.F.  He was confirmend as Lieutenant on May 25th, 1918.  His promotion and mention in a dispatch was almost certainly earned at the battle of Vimy Ridge, April 9-12, 1917.  The dates agree.  Stanley was a signaller -- that is, a look-out for the gunners, one who squats in an advanced position near the enemy lines with a field telephone and a pair of binoculars and sends back to the gunners messages such as: "Fifty feet too far right, boys.""

[Chris Parker]

I've been doing this through my blog too and Dick Kirkpatrick pointed out that a Thompson course for Bayview was at another site if it existed. That may need more research.

Ian, I just posted this response to Dick's question on your blog, but I'll post it here too:

Dick,

The Toronto Terror records, from the March 1923 issue of Canadian Golfer that,
"Bayview was at the rear of Lawrence Park on the corner of Bayview and Lawrence Avenues."
The club had apparently recently contracted with Stanley Thompson & Co., Limited, for the construction of an additional nine holes.

[Chris Parker]

Chris,
that's tough one because it would still be essentially Cummings layout renovated by Thompson.

Ian,

That was my point about subjectivity.  Exactly what makes a course a Thompson course?  If it has to be a brand new course, what about Peterborough and Cataraqui, for example?

[Ian Andrew]

From August 1921 in the Canadian Golfer

Briars Golf & Country Club planned by George Cumming and Nicol Thompson - another mystery appears

Jeff, I went to find barkley's reference to Sarnia, and I could not find it - so for now I guess it's back out

[Ian Andrew]

Peterborough was almost a complete rebuild - and I have some cool stuff here to verify that.

Catarqui is essentially all but 7,8 and 9 - that's enough for me.

Summit is a fun toss up.


Chris,

If I read that right - please help me here - he served from April 1915 through till the end of the war. Doesn't that end much speculation on courses from 1915 to 1919?

[Chris Parker]

Jeff, I went to find barkley's reference to Sarnia, and I could not find it - so for now I guess it's back out

Ian,

Barclay got it from the August 1921 issue of Canadian Golfer, which read:

"Dr. Hayes, chairman of the green committee reported that work had been resumed on the renovation of the fairgreens early in March.  Mr. Stanley Thompson has made an inspection...Mr. Thompson will prepare a plasticine miniature of the Sarnia course with bunkers placed as they should be and it was passed by the meeting that no deviation from the plan should be allowed without first being authorized by a meeting of the directors."

The Sarnia club's website states that Cumming was hired in 1913 to lay out nine holes, but evidently Thompson renovated them in the early 1920s.  Likewise, the website states that construction on the new nine holes began in 1926 on land that was acquired on a long-term lease from the Grand Trunk Railroad.  Could Thompson have designed the second nine?

[Chris Parker]

Summit is a fun toss up.

Chris,

If I read that right - please help me here - he served from April 1915 through till the end of the war. Doesn't that end much speculation on courses from 1915 to 1919?

A Cumming layout maybe, but almost all of Thompson's tees and greens.  That's enough for me.  

If I cut a huge swath through the woods and you come along and build a golf course in the clearings, does that still make it a Chris Parker design?  I know, I know, I'm over-simplifying it!

I'm just kidding with you, Ian.  I adore Summit (from the single time I've played there) and I just can't bear the thought that it's not a Thompson!

As for the military service record, that's how I read it too, but it should be noted that Thompson was back in Canada in time to play in the Toronto and District Championship in June of 1919, so that year is not out entirely.  

Who is claiming that Thompson was designing courses during the Great War?  Trumbull was founded in 1915, but Barclay indicates that it was listed as being under construction in a 1922 list of Thompson courses (probably from the famous advertisement that says he was working on something like a dozen courses that year, including York Downs), so he may have only done a reno, or may have only done the contractor work like on Lakeview and YD!

I'll see what I can find on the Briars.

[Chris Parker]

From Barclay:

The August 1921 issue of Canadian Golfer says,

"Another golf club is being organized in the Lake Simcoe district, the Briars Golf and Country Club Limited.  It will be planned by George Cumming and Nicol Thompson."

However, the July 1922 issue of CG says,

"Under the direction of Stanley Thompson & Co., Limited, a real up-to-date nine hole course of championship length and requirements, with many fine natural hazards and built up greens is in course of construction on the quaint old Sibbald estate at Jackson's Point."

Barclay indicates that the firm of Thompson, Cumming and Thompson was formed in 1920, as announced in the February 1920 issue of CG:

"A Canadian golfing firm of outstanding ability has recently been formed, composed of Nicol Thompson, the popular Hamilton pro and golf architect, George Cumming, the celebrated Toronto pro and architect, and Mr. Stanley Thompson, the young amateur who last year returned from overseas."

It is apparent that Nicol and Cumming were the "big names" of the firm.  

Barclay writes,

"The new company was flooded with work, including contracts for courses that Nicol Thompson and George Cumming had already been commissioned to do.
After one year, the demand for their services as golf course architects was too much for golf professionals Nicol and George, whose first responsibility was to the members of their clubs."

In April 1921 CG reported:

"The firm of Thompson, Cumming and Thompson...owing to the great stress of other business, has sold out its interests to Lewis and Thompson Company, with offices in New York, Philadelphia and Toronto..."

Barclay goes on to indicate that "the above-mentioned Lewis, an American, was primarily an earth-mover -- or golf course contractor -- and Lewis and Thompson advertised the company as "Golf Course Engineers."  Less than a year later, Stanley Thompson formed his own company."

So Briars was awarded to Thompson, Cumming & Thompson in 1921.  Stanley probably wasn't mentioned in the press released because he wasn't a well-established name yet.  Yet, by the time construction started on the course a year later, Cumming and Nicol Thompson had all but retired from the design business.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting stuff, guys.

Another interesting historical footnote:

Vernon Macan, an Irish-Canadian based in Victoria, who was very busy in British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest desiging golf courses during Thompson's heyday of the 1920s and 30s, was very seriously injured at Vimy Ridge. In fact, he lost a leg during the battle.

There were a lot of brave Canadians fighting there, at Vimy Ridge; interesting that the two most prolific Canadian course architects during the Golden Age era were there, fighting with the Canadian forces.  

[Chris Parker]

There were a lot of brave Canadians fighting there, at Vimy Ridge; interesting that the two most prolific Canadian course architects during the Golden Age era were there, fighting with the Canadian forces.  

I agree Jeff.  It's heroic feats like that by ordinary men and women that make spending a Saturday afternoon on GCA seem trivial.  Time to go play with my son and think about the freedoms we have, thanks to guys like Stan and Vern and my Grandpa...

[Jeff_Mingay]

My grampa too, Chris. In fact, my daughter's doing her speech (for school) on my grampa's heroics on a Halifax bomber that was shot down during the Second World War.

She tells her class about it Monday!

Abby was apprehensive about the topic when I suggested it. Now she's so proud of her great-grampa, who unfortunately, she never met. Thankfully, I knew him well.

[Ian Andrew]

Chris,

If Cumming laid out the 18 holes you have now, and please note there are a couple of new holes from that layout. How can you say it is a Thompson course if he rebuilt the bunkers and greens and added additional tees? Is not the routing essential to the golf course.

I'm looking for a list of what "he" has designed.

I think Summit will likely be included, but I have my doubts.

[Dave Kemp]

Ian,

What about Cedarhurst in in Beaverton?

See their website here http://www.cedarhurstgolf.com/

Not that far from Jackson's Point and the Briars.  The timeline Chris presents seems to agree with the date provided in their brief description.  There is anther 9 hole in that area of Lake Simcoe at Orchard Beach and I believe they claim to be a Thompson course.

There is a photo in Barclay's "Golf in Canada" and the caption reads "Summit Golf and Counry Club, Toronto, designed by George Cumming and George Lyon, modified by Stanley Thompson."

Same book includes an advertisement for Stanley Thompson & Co. Limited, Golf and Landscape Engineers and Architects dated 1923. Part of the ad lists "A Few Recent Commissions" including Briars Golf & Country Club, Jackson's Point and Trumble Golf and Country Club, Warren, Ohio.

Anybody collect Score magazines?  Barclay notes that Robert Moote published a list of Thompson courses in a 1981 edition.

Dave

[Jeff_Mingay]

Dave,

I have a really fascinating plan, produced by Thompson's office, for Orchard Beach. In fact, I think I got it from Chris Parker. It's a great drawing, showing the 9-hole course there. (Unfortunately I have no clue how to post photos here.)

What kinda shape is the place in these days?

Very curious,

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