[Bryan Izatt]

For fun, here are aerials of three holes, each with a centre line bunker creating a strategic hole, laid out on flat ground, with interesting green complexes.  But one is by an architect who is generally revered here; one who is generally reviled here; and, one who is rarely mentioned here.

Can you attribute to the holes to the architect and name the courses.  Can you describe, based on this hole why one is revered, another reviled, and the other unknown.

Hole_A---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hole_B---------------------------------------------------Hole_C-----------------------

[Allan Hutton]

Don't know the architects.

Like holes A&B, not C.  I would never challenge the bunker on C, perhaps it is the scale, but there doesn't seem to be as much of a benefit taking it down the right side.

On A&B the centre bunker does offer up some decision to be made, re: risk of taking the more aggressive side to open up a better line to the green.

I'm sure C is by the Revered architect  

[Garland Bayley]

Have no idea the architects. Hole B is the only one I want to play.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I believe B is Talking Stick by C and C.  As always, could be wrong.  That one seems to be the best of the bunch.  A and C both apparently ask the golfer to challenge the water for no apparent reason.  Both do have wider fw, but I doubt they are wide enough to encourage aiming anywhere near the water on a shortish 4.  

The CC version has the wider fw and frontal opening on the long route, offering a clear choice of shorter distance by going right.  If I recall, the hole is long enough to make a difference.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bryan interesting Q, I'll lay my thoughts out for eventual ridicule #

Assuming they are all similar length Par 4's.
C Is the dark stuff water? If so it seems like a confused hole.  The model for all of these would be the 4th at Woking and the challenge you have to decide there is do you attempt the narrow part of the fairway for a better line into the green? Additionally the narrow side has O/B all down the side of it.  The water is in the wrong place and anyway the right hand side target is too narrow to make it worth the risk - if the rough is penal - even if it clearly offers a better line into the green.

B also seems confused, the bigger target area is on the right hand side of the picture and that also offers the best line in. So what's to tempt me to aim right (LHS picture)?

A seems the one for me. It's virtually a mirror image of Woking with the trees serving as the O/B hazard.  The addition of a 3rd bunker forces the long hitter (like you) to think twice.  Woking could do with this as today everyone just blasts over the centreline feature.  
(NB am I reading these right? A plays in the opposite direction to the other 2?)

[Kirk Gill]

Seems to me that the area to the right on C is awfully narrow, but it does give you the benefit of an approach that is not over water, which would constitute a big benefit to most players. The hole doesn't seem overly long, so one wonders if the centerline bunker is raised on its edges, so that if you drove short of it to the right side if the fairway it would obscure the green. Otherwise, there doesn't seem any reason to challenge it to either side, unless you know you can carry it.

A mirrors c, to a certain degree, with the larger landing area on the right side leaving a water-carrying approach, but the landing area on the left is guarded by that longer bunker as well. A golfer with a tamed fade might enjoy carving one to land in between those bunkers, leaving an approach largely over land. I would probably enjoy trying that shot.

Without knowing the topography of B, it's hard to say what the strategy would be. It appears as if the left side of the fairway is wider and would give the best angle of approach (albeit with a longer shot), but if the view of the green from that side would be blind to some degree, it would encourage a try for the right side of the fairway bunker, leaving what looks to be a tough approach over the front greenside bunker.

I don't know the courses or designers (or the distances involved), but from the overhead view I think the drive on A looks like the most fun, and B looks like it might be the toughest hole. C doesn't really move me, as the picture leaves me feeling like I'd probably never challenge that middle bunker at all.

[Bryan Izatt]

Allen,

On C there is a definite benefit to being to the right of the bunker. It shows you the length of the green.  There is a swale in front of the bunker and the back edge is raised and fringed with taller grass effectively obscuring the green.  Left of the bunker not only requires a carry over the water, but the green is elevated maybe 6 to 8 feet above the water.  Anything on that bank is back in the water.

There's a definite risk reward to choosing the right side.  The risk is the cart path and jungle.

Garland,

Can you expand?  Why only B?

Jeff,

Of course, it's Talking Stick and C&C. The revered.

C actually asks you to challenge the narrow right side for the reasons I give above.  If you read the distance guide, you are tempted to hit it out left.  It looks much safer and the water is pretty much out of reach for most if they're playing the right tees.

A gives you a tee shot with two problems: bush on the left and water right.  The second is easier from the left.  The risk is stroke and distance vs just stroke.

I'm not sure I agree that the C&C hole provides a viable run-up option.  It's a narrow opening, and who runs up anyway.  This is America - not the UK.

Tony,

See my comments above on C.  The right side is essentially OB.  But the left side is no picnic for the second shot.

In B, as Jeff suggests, some think it's easier to have a longer second from the left up the length of the green rather than a shorter angled shot over a bunker from the right.  I'm not persuaded that that is true for most.

Yes, you read it right. A plays north.  B & C play south.

Kirk,

C is relatively short but plays longer into the prevailing wind.  Carrying the bunker wouldn't be for mrere mortals.  The bunker does obscure the green.  The benefits and risks of the two sides I've described above.

A is a longer par 4, so laying up short is not a good idea.  The right side is wider and safer, but the second is over water.  The left side threatens a stroke and distance penalty.

B is essentially flat as the proverbial pancake.  I'm not convinced it's so strategic a hole, but it is by the revered architects, C&C

To all,

Strangely, I liked C best of all.  It took several playings to figure out the distances and angles, but I found it the most interesting.

Any other guesses as to the reviled and little known architects?

[Phil McDade]

My order of which I'd like to play, based on the aerials and (admittedly) what's been said so far, is A-B-C.

A just looks like the coolest of the three holes, with the drive options being: short middle; short right, cutting a fade just off of the bunkers; short left (to avoid the water carry, but challenging OB left); bombing it over the center bunker complex; or slotting the drive between the far bunker left and the center bunker complex. That's a lot of options!

B's options are pretty clear -- short, left, right, bomb it over. Don't quite get why one would go right, though; based on the aerial, the risk doesn't seem worth it, as others have mentioned, due to bunkering position and green angle. Even left with a longer approach looks somewhat more appealing for an approach than bombing it over (lately, I've found myself preferring longer approach shots to an open green than a shorter iron over traps/trouble).

C just looks too penal on either side to challenge the center bunker. I'd just drop a shot behind it and hope I don't pull my approach shot.

A is the oldest hole by a little-mentioned archie, B is already accounted for, C is a Fazio-like reviled architect. Just my guesses.

[RJ_Daley]

I completely agree with Garland.  B is the only hole I thing is worth a crap.  It would have helped if you gave the yardages.

A, you let it out and hit the hard high fade and clear or go right of the bunker, and you got more trouble than easier smooth lay-up up the left.  C, not enough room right to make it attractive, and hit the nice draw and you still, like A have to flirt with water on the second and more shallow green with more trouble behind.  Where is the reward for hitting the well executed tee shot?

B has enough room to make it a real choice and possible to get to the side that you select, or over the bunker, .  Then, the shorter but straighter, probably easier shot must take on more trouble of bunkers to cross, and the more difficult longer and riskier shot up the left has more open approach as the reward, with deeper green.

I have no idea who the archies are.  I'll guess Doak at Apache on B.  But, where ever it is, I never been there.

[RT]

Hole A, Old Marsh? Pete Dye

[peter_p]

Brian, nice photo website!

Doing a little sleuthing with clues provided, B is #5 at Talking Stick North. Yardage is 400, with a carry of 256 over the centerline bunker. From the yardage book.

Using math, a ruler and an assumption of a 30 yard deep green, hole A is 400 yards with a 235 carry. It may be a bit longer because the back tee is indistinct. To my view the previous hole has a very big bunker right of the green

Hole C, assuming a 30 yard green is 300 yards long. A 35 yd deep green dilates it to 350. Even my popcorn drive will cary the center bunker, which is either 180 or 210.

Reloads?

I like C the best. It's strategy varies according to hole loacation. Shadowing on the bunkers indicates deep pot bunkers, essentially a one stroke penalty. Center bunker is in the middle of the widest target. You need to be precise or lay up. Hitting driver right brings the tree and the near green bunker. Both may cause serious problems. If you drive it in the lake greenside, par is still possible with a good up and down.

A. Strategy may change if the left trees contain an OB line, which is possible with the straight line of the trees. Bunkers don't look penal, green mostly open. What would I do? Challenge the bunker and don't worry. Move the bunker one of it's widthright and it would be a difficult decision.

I'd always go left on B.

[Bryan Izatt]

For the yardage buffs, following are the straight line distance from the middle of the back tee to the middle of the green, followed by the bunker carry distance from the middle of the back tee.

Hole A: 421/278

Hole B:  361/262

Hole C:  376/245

Clearly only the mighty are going to carry the bunker on A.  As you move up the tee blocks the bunkers obviously become more carryable.  In any event, C is the most likely to be carryable.  So, C likely has the most options for the most players.

As noted B is #5 at TSN.  As Peter noted the hole is 400 yards.  That's from the very back cut line of the tee going up the middle of the fairway left of the bunker.  The 256 yard carry is also from the back cut of the back tee. A direct route from the middle of the back tee, skirting the right side of the bunker is 361 as I noted above.  Is the marginally more open shot from the left side worth an extra  30 or 40 yards on the second shot?

 A is not Old Marsh/Pete Dye.   C is not Fazio.

A and C are in Florida if that helps narrow your guesses down.

RJ,

Yardages are as above.  

B has more than enough room - 37 yards to the left of the bunker and 26 to the right of the bunker.  That's hardly challenging accuracy off the tee.  Again, if you take the right side the second shot is likely only in the order if 100 to 125 yards.  The angled green and bunker complexes are not that challenging with a wedge in hand.  The left side second shot is likely 140 to 165 yards.

C is somewhat narrower on both sides 30 yards to the left of the bunker and 22 yards to the right.  But those don't seem like punitively narrow widths to me.  The left side shot is more difficult than B's although they are relatively the same length.  The green is shallow and has a sharp drop off front, left and back from that side.

A has football field width with 43 yards to the left of the bunker and 50 yards to the right of the smaller bunker.  The penalty for playing the wider field to the right is a second shot somewhere around 170 to 190 over water vs 140 to 160 up the left.  More room to hang yourself going right with those prodigous widths.

[Philippe Binette]

From my point:

A is not that good since if you are not playing left, you have to aim toward the water for the 'safe' shot (we might be missing a tee on the picture) so the ball could roll through and go in the lake but at least it's wide.

B since there's no water, player could gamble a little more. I cannot determine why somebody should play right (golfer perspective). Should know more about the green.

C is really troublesome. If the site is flat, the player probably can barely see the second lake, there not a lot of room right and left is stupid, why play between a lake and a bunker to play your second over the lake.... Only one smart thing, play short and take everything out of play.

[TEPaul]

Bryan:

Interesting question and comparison. I wish I could offer some opinions but the problem is I've never actually played a golf hole from about 1,000 feet in the air. Or at least I don't think I have.

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

Would your opinion of A change if it was more like the distance of B or C -- say, mid-350s and a bunker carry of less than 250 yards? Now that I know the yardages, I would say A offers somewhat fewer options than I originally thought, or, put another way, options for fewer players, because of its length. A reminds me quite a bit of Hilton Head's 18th, which I've always thought is a pretty good hole, even without the visual attractions.

[Cassandra Burns]

My initial reaction was to like C, then B, then A.

A has got what looks like OB running down the left side.  I hate OB left, but that's because of my game, not on any sort of general principle. That green complex is really tight, with OB left and water short and right, and that's what I like least about this hole - I see very little room for recovery around the green, so it just comes across as too penal to me.  Since 421 is out of my reach anyways, I'd play short right, then short left, and hope for an up and down or an easy bogey.  I like the second bunker left to keep the very long hitters from having too easy a go at this hole.  The bunkers look like they've got that ugly blinding white sand in the them, yecch.

On B, the teebox looks like it's oriented just right of the bunker, and straight at the green.  I think the intial temptation is to just go for it with a slight fade.  Then you're looking at having to carry a bunker with a short to mid iron.  Going left is great for the ground game, and you'll need it with a mid-to-long iron.  I don't really find it all that compelling.  I'd much rather play right and have a short iron over the bunkers.  In fact, I don't think I'd even think about it.  Now, if the green slopes front right to back left, making that short iron iffy to hold, then we're talking.

From just the aerial photos, I like C the best.  I think it would be the most unnerving hole.  The tee boxes are aimed at the water.  The temptation is to bail right, but that sets up a dangerous approach to the green.  I'd rather come in from the left side of the fairway, and while I've got water to carry at least I'm also hitting away from it.  Plus, the fairway bunker is the most in play for most players, being closest to the tee box.  I don't know, it just seems the juiciest hole.  There are just so many opportunities for success and disaster!

I'm going to guess Robert Trent Jones did A.  I have no clue as to C.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,

C is not so narrow through the bunker area, the total width being a bit more than 60 yards.  

Re placement of the bunker relative to the tee, remember the yardages are from the tips.  From the tips A is 7400 yards, B is 7100 and C is 6900.  Only the insane would play from the back tees on A.  For most people picking the right set of tees to play the whole course at would bring the centre bunker on all three courses more into play - that is, there would be a real option to carry it.

For instance on A, moving up one set of tees, the hole is 386 and carry is 245.  The temptation would be there to fly it, from those tees or ones even further forward.

Does playing the proper tees make any of these (or all of them) better?

Not Art Hills on C, but you are getting warmer.

Phillipe,

The back tee in A is indeed out of the picture.  But the fairway is over 100 yards wide.  You have to miss pretty badly right to hit the water.  Running through is not a real problem given the length and the usual soft Florida conditions.

Again C is not that narrow through the bunker at over 60 yards in width.  Laying up produces a blind shot, and into the wind is a mid-iron.  So not as easy as it seems.

Tom,

You may have played high, but not at a 1,000 feet.  

Cassandra,

It's Florida, blinding white sand comes with the territory. The white area to the right of the tee is the natural graded ground, not a bunker on the previous hole.  Probably housed by now.

On A, I assume you wouldn't play from the tips at 7400 yards.  From more forward tees and less distance would the hole be more appealing.

I agree on B, and I, too, found C most appealing.

Not RTJ on A.

[Bryan Izatt]

To assist in guessing the architect of C, here are some pictures of a Biarritz green elsewhere on the course.  How can you not like an architect who would create such a dramatic green.  It's at least a 5 foot rise to  the back tier from the trench.  Sorry for the quality of the pictures - cell phone camera was all I had available at the time.

[Andy Hughes]

Ah ha!  You were just south of Sarasota for the unknown architect.


fyi, just so I have my facts straight...wasn't the 4th at Woking actually Low's rendition of the Principal's Nose at TOC?

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

I actually liked the placement of the bunkers on A, one of the primary reasons I favored it over the others. A single centerline bunker is appealing in many ways, but's rather straightforward -- your thought on the tee usually is: Can I carry it or not? If not, is there room left or right of it for the type of shot I usually hit/am able to hit? If you answer no to all of those, hit it short.

A strikes me as fostering more thought on the tee, because the right-side approach is over water, left is OB (presumably) or lots of trouble in/beyond the tree line, and the best angle to the green would appear to be a drive "slotted" through the upper left bunker and the centerline ones. Pretty cool design, in my book. But a MAJOR factor for me would be the distance of the hole; for my game, and I'd bet most folks, 420 yards of that would be a beast. I'd prefer it at @ 350 yards, with the centerline bunkers truly interfering with a "tee it up and smack it" approach.

Cassandra's right about the toughness of the green; pretty penal left and right. Another reason the hole would be better at 350 or so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Thanks for posting the three holes, it's an interesting study.

I don't know how anyone can comment on how they play without having played them.

Could you IM me and identify A & C so that I can make an effort to play them when I get a chance to go to Florida.

[Bryan Izatt]

Andy,

Yes, indeed it was south of Sarasota.  You can reveal the unknown architect if you wish.  He deserves some more visibility around here imho.

The Woking comment is addressed to Tony I assume.

Phil,
 
Is it not axiomatic that any hole plays better, more interesting, if you start out on the right tee for your game and the hole.  There is certainly a 350 yard tee on that hole.  Consistent with a 6500 yard layout for the course.  At 421 yards and 7400 yards total I'd guess that it'd only be suitable for good pros and amateurs that are long.

Patrick,

Weigh in with your views on the designs.  The topography is essentially Florida flat, with swales as I've mentioned above on C.  Think of them as architectural blueprints.  Is there inherent good or bad to the design of each?  Assuming the right selection of tees and length of hole.

From a perspective of Architect talent, one question I'd like to get at is, does the layout of a particular hole contribute to whether an architect is reviled or revered? Or is it other factors.  Based on comments so far, there doesn't appear to be a groundswell of revulsion for any indivdual hole above.

Sure, I'll IM you.  

[Phil McDade]

Bryan:

Thanks for the info. A 350 tee on A (where I'd probably play from) makes the bunker carry around 200 yards, which in my mind is a pretty good strategic hole.

When Scott Burroughs was doing his name-this-aerial series, he usually posted the answer in an afternoon. This thread is now more than 24 hours old; I'm dying to know the architect and course of A (and C, I guess, but mainly A)!

[Andy Hughes]

Phil, 'C' is the Venetian by Chip Powell .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Would you have any photos taken from the tee and DZ ?

Any taken from the green looking back toward the tee ?

Is there a prevailing wind on each hole ?
If so, what is the direction ?

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