[Jon Spaulding]

The best approach to the 12th green is from beyond it.  A tee shot hit long of the green allows you to pitch back up against the valley effect.  A front pin make look difficult from over the green but it's not as hard as you think.  This is all even more solidified when the hole is playing downwind and a shot from over the green is played up-valley and into the wind.

Jeff F.

Interesting; I think this hole would only be downwind a few days a year (like it allegedly was last Saturday).

Unfortunately, setting up an approach from past the green after hitting a 290-300 yard draw is not something that crosses my mind very often.

[David Stamm]

The best approach to the 12th green is from beyond it.  A tee shot hit long of the green allows you to pitch back up against the valley effect.  A front pin make look difficult from over the green but it's not as hard as you think.  This is all even more solidified when the hole is playing downwind and a shot from over the green is played up-valley and into the wind.


Jeff F.

Still mulling over which way to play that pin placement from Sat. Jeff? Me too! That was brutal! Jon, the pin was cut that day on the top shelf right on the front. Very tough!

[Brian Noser]

Jeff,

 I thought about that as well but if the pin is back, over the green is very difficult. I agree if you are past green high about 50 yards right of the green this is a good spot for about any place on the green, but like I said even if it plays down wind the shot back into the wind to a back pin is not an easy shot because of the slope to get to the green.

[Jon Spaulding]

The best approach to the 12th green is from beyond it.  A tee shot hit long of the green allows you to pitch back up against the valley effect.  A front pin make look difficult from over the green but it's not as hard as you think.  This is all even more solidified when the hole is playing downwind and a shot from over the green is played up-valley and into the wind.


Jeff F.

Still mulling over which way to play that pin placement from Sat. Jeff? Me too! That was brutal! Jon, the pin was cut that day on the top shelf right on the front. Very tough!

Post up a photo if you can; when I was up there I took photos of the 17 other holes I played decently. I think we're talking about the same pin position, which I still think should be dozed if I were to make one arch change.

[David Stamm]

Sorry bubba, I didn't take any. Maybe someone else did? Or Ryan or DM can take one this weekend of that hole and where the pin was that day.

[Joe Perches]

Design-wise, doze #12 green and come up with a better idea!

Sacrilege.

12 is a wonderful combination of easy birdie, easy par, easy double bogey.  It seems rare for people to make bogey there.

cheers

[Pete Lavallee]

Surely Jon must be having a little fun at our expense. Could any reasonable critic really quantify the architectural merits of a golf hole based on 2 unsuccessful attempts?

[Jon Spaulding]

Don't see an "easy" 3's or 4's when the pin is mounted up on top. I will agree that the 6 made by me last month was quite easy.

While 2 attempts is certainly not a wealth, #1 was successful with the lower pin. #2 was not, but the rest of the day was in the red so I was a "happy camp"er on the way home (no pun intended).

Pete, how many times have you played the 12th, and what is your opinion of the upper pin position?

[rjsimper]

I agree that the pin on 12 was the toughest spot on that green - just on the knob in the middle of the green - simultaneously on the precipice of the falloff to the right and to the front.  This is not the back, upper-level pin that we are talking about.

I agree that it's tough, but based on all of our tee shots that day, simple execution would have put par into play.  Mr. Stamm did not execute his second shot and ended up with a poor score.  Mr. Kavanaugh did not execute his second shot and ended up with a poor score.  I did not execute my second shot and ended up with a poor score, and the same can be said of Mr. Moriarty.  On a par 4 hole with an 80 yard wide fairway and playing maybe 220 yards, I think it's reasonable to protect par with a tough pin.  

It just kind of blows the mind that one cannot expect to make birdie on a hole of such diminuitive length.

However, JK proved that an up and down from the collection area to the right was possible, and had I actually put a good stroke on the ball, I proved that an up and down from the left bunker was possible to what is presumably the toughest pin on the green.

[rjsimper]

Pete, how many times have you played the 12th, and what is your opinion of the upper pin position?

Jon - Are you talking about the way-back pin?  If you are, I take even more issue with your opinion.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the back-shelf pin.  I can see the arguments against the middle-front knob pin, but the back pin is just what it needs to be - difficult to access even though the front of the green is wide open...and punishing to those who get a little too aggressive with their 90 yard wedge shots and run it past the flagstick.

Oh, and I have probably played the hole 50-100 times

[Jon Spaulding]

I agree that the pin on 12 was the toughest spot on that green - just on the knob in the middle of the green - simultaneously on the precipice of the falloff to the right and to the front.  This is not the back, upper-level pin that we are talking about.

I agree that it's tough, but based on all of our tee shots that day, simple execution would have put par into play.  Mr. Stamm did not execute his second shot and ended up with a poor score.  Mr. Kavanaugh did not execute his second shot and ended up with a poor score.  I did not execute my second shot and ended up with a poor score, and the same can be said of Mr. Moriarty.  On a par 4 hole with an 80 yard wide fairway and playing maybe 220 yards, I think it's reasonable to protect par with a tough pin.  

It just kind of blows the mind that one cannot expect to make birdie on a hole of such diminuitive length.

However, JK proved that an up and down from the collection area to the right was possible, and had I actually put a good stroke on the ball, I proved that an up and down from the left bunker was possible to what is presumably the toughest pin on the green.

I'll 2nd the "blows the mind" statement. That is one of my favorite parts of Rustic (throughout the course); just not a big fan of that pin position on 12. At least this course is good enough to warrant some controversy; given the barren landscape of SCA public golf we should all be thankful!

[David Stamm]

I agree that the pin on 12 was the toughest spot on that green - just on the knob in the middle of the green - simultaneously on the precipice of the falloff to the right and to the front.  This is not the back, upper-level pin that we are talking about.

 

My mistake Ryan. My recollection of that green is the knob, or as I wrongly termed, the shelf. I just seem to remember that green not having much more depth than where the pin was cut that day. But after looking at the yardage book and the green diagram, I was mistaken. Don't know what I was thinking. I did more or less hit the shot I wanted to hit, it was the wrong shot to play however. I tried (stupidly I might add) to play a high soft cut to the pin, but the proper shot would've been to play short and let it run up. I'll know for next time!

[Jon Spaulding]

Pete, how many times have you played the 12th, and what is your opinion of the upper pin position?

Jon - Are you talking about the way-back pin?  If you are, I take even more issue with your opinion.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the back-shelf pin.  I can see the arguments against the middle-front knob pin, but the back pin is just what it needs to be - difficult to access even though the front of the green is wide open...and punishing to those who get a little too aggressive with their 90 yard wedge shots and run it past the flagstick.

Oh, and I have probably played the hole 50-100 times

Talking about the back shelf pin, on the portion that's raised up x number of feet, with a small flat section. Coming at it from the left bunker is obviously a mistake. From the right it may be "more" playable, but to me is still somewhat contrived. Wish I'd taken a photo. Of course if you've been there that many times you have one in your head.

[TEPaul]

I'm very happy to hear that kind of discussion about the 12th hole. It was expected that the concept was sort of risky and the concern was that too many may not get it. My first concern was whether or not the pin could be seen from the 11th hole to allow those who had a good idea about the concept to remember to look before getting on the tee. That great big wide fairway with nothing penal on it was supposed to make the golfer sense a rat about. Geoff wanted something that would make golfers aware that they sometimes had to recognize "whole hole" strategies and to break them of merely thinking in single shot increments. All I said was that for a drive that was good but without thought that green had to make the golfer pay. We all knew even if it worked as intended it would still be pretty enigmatic and probably controversial.

[Jon Spaulding]

I'm very happy to hear that kind of discussion about the 12th hole. It was expected that the concept was sort of risky and the concern was that too many may not get it. My first concern was whether or not the pin could be seen from the 11th hole to allow those who had a good idea about the concept to remember to look before getting on the tee. That great big wide fairway with nothing penal on it was supposed to make the golfer sense a rat about. Geoff wanted something that would make golfers aware that they sometimes had to recognize "whole hole" strategies and to break them of merely thinking in single shot increments. All I said was that for a drive that was good but without thought that green had to make the golfer pay. We all knew even if it worked as intended it would still be pretty enigmatic and probably controversial.

Well said. I've yet to play a great course that's without controversy, which is often self-defined. I find the 12th green offensive; yet others rush to defend it. Geoff certainly succeeded with this hole and the entire project.

[rjsimper]

Upon playing to this knob-pin, even standing 90 yards from the flagstick in the fairway, I still couldn't tell where it was, exactly.  I had to ask all my playing partners to determine a consensus...and I've played the hole enough that still feeling clueless is kind of fun in a morbid sadistic way.

[Pete Lavallee]

Jon,

I've played the hole about 20 times; probably about 1/3 of the time the pin is on the top shelf. I just don't see the issue here, it's a dificult shot to pull off and where you start from from can certainly compound the difficulty. But I've seen Lynn "stick it close" with a wedge after a layup to the right, on the first  day I played there so I know it's possible. I've also seen people run it up. I wish I had the Game to try what Fortson does; but that might come in handy when trying to save a par some day.

The green really does do what it's intended to do: make it harder to get close to the hole if go straight for it off the tee. You can make birdie both ways, I suspect it's just not as much fun do do  it from the right side after a layup.

[Jon Spaulding]

Upon playing to this knob-pin, even standing 90 yards from the flagstick in the fairway, I still couldn't tell where it was, exactly.  I had to ask all my playing partners to determine a consensus...and I've played the hole enough that still feeling clueless is kind of fun in a morbid sadistic way.

That's why Rustic is such a great experience; one I will make a point to see when in the area. The emotional "beta" is very high...almost everywhere, but notably holes 3, 5, 7, 12, 14, with the latter just a remarkable design.

Just wish they had a bullet train from South OC that stopped at the clubhouse.

[David Stamm]

That's why Rustic is such a great experience; one I will make a point to see when in the area. The emotional "beta" is very high...almost everywhere, but notably holes 3, 5, 7, 12, 14, with the latter just a remarkable design.

Just wish they had a bullet train from South OC that stopped at the clubhouse.

If you build it, I will come. I agree with you about 14, that is a truly great hole. 3 is such a wonderful short par 4, the type of hole that I'm a particular fan of. So many options.

[Brian Noser]

I must say that pin is very tough yes... you can how ever get it close which is the beauty of it. As most of you know there is a ridge in the middle of the green. If you are in the right position in the fairway you can play the ball up the left of the green and it will funnal up to the ridge. it is a great little play.  the play for that pin is to be just short of pin high to the right of the green so you can use the ridge on the left to funnal the ball close to that tough pin.

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon,

I've played the hole about 20 times; probably about 1/3 of the time the pin is on the top shelf. I just don't see the issue here, it's a dificult shot to pull off and where you start from from can certainly compound the difficulty. But I've seen Lynn "stick it close" with a wedge after a layup to the right, on the first  day I played there so I know it's possible. I've also seen people run it up. I wish I had the Game to try what Fortson does; but that might come in handy when trying to save a par some day.

The green really does do what it's intended to do: make it harder to get close to the hole if go straight for it off the tee. You can make birdie both ways, I suspect it's just not as much fun do do  it from the right side after a layup.

I fully agree that this hole/green does what is intended. No issues with it whatsoever, in the context of an 18-hole wonderful course. But as the thread asks....that's the one change I would make. What would you or Ryan change at Rustic?

[rjsimper]

Jon - see above re: #7 for me.  Another change that has been made is the re-introduction of the back tee on 14 which makes that hole the beast it should always be.

I'd have liked to see the flattening or extending of the right side of 8 - more pinnable square footage is a good thing there, and just another new look at a hole that is typically either just left pin or normal pin.

11 post flood I think would be a hell of a short par 5.  It's got everything you need to make a good short par 5...from the difficult green to the bunker protecting well short/right of the green, death for a snap hook, and the new feature which makes it so is the hazard pinching the fairway to the 120 mark, which would be potentially reasonable on a layup par 5, but is almost unfair to the conservative short-average hitter playing a par 4 where he's already taking his medicine by not going for the green in two, but now has to furthermore worry about his layup.  

Of course this would lead to 9-10-11 and 13 being par 5s...

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon - see above re: #7 for me.  Another change that has been made is the re-introduction of the back tee on 14 which makes that hole the beast it should always be.

I'd have liked to see the flattening or extending of the right side of 8 - more pinnable square footage is a good thing there, and just another new look at a hole that is typically either just left pin or normal pin.

11 post flood I think would be a hell of a short par 5.  It's got everything you need to make a good short par 5...from the difficult green to the bunker protecting well short/right of the green, death for a snap hook, and the new feature which makes it so is the hazard pinching the fairway to the 120 mark, which would be potentially reasonable on a layup par 5, but is almost unfair to the conservative short-average hitter playing a par 4 where he's already taking his medicine by not going for the green in two, but now has to furthermore worry about his layup.  

Of course this would lead to 9-10-11 and 13 being par 5s...

Interesting idea on #11; but where would you move the tee?

[rjsimper]

Theres space to move back the right set of tees further along the line they are on...or even move them to the right in line with the current 18th tee, and then move the 18th tee to the left a bit.  You could even have a shared tee box...except that works best when the same sets of tees for 2 different holes share common ground, and in this case it would be black/blue for 18 with white for 11.

You could move the black/blue tees back along their own line toward the 10th green and add about 40-50 yards, bringing the hole in around 490.

One other problem with this is that pretty much 5 of the 6 par 5s play along the same line, up canyon - 5, 9, 10, 11, 13

[Jon Spaulding]

Theres space to move back the right set of tees further along the line they are on...or even move them to the right in line with the current 18th tee, and then move the 18th tee to the left a bit.  You could even have a shared tee box...except that works best when the same sets of tees for 2 different holes share common ground, and in this case it would be black/blue for 18 with white for 11.

You could move the black/blue tees back along their own line toward the 10th green and add about 40-50 yards, bringing the hole in around 490.

One other problem with this is that pretty much 5 of the 6 par 5s play along the same line, up canyon - 5, 9, 10, 11, 13

And they'd all be downwind every afternoon (I think). 11th tee back and to the left, downwind sure would make for a great tee shot, similar to the 14th.

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