Crystal Springs, Burlingame

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,
   I assume you're talking local to me. I would play Poppy Ridge or Wente before Callippe. Yesterday I was out at Roddy Ranch with Matt Cohn. $30 with a coupon. I would do that before Callippe, but that is a bit of a drive, so probably doesn't qualify.
   I suppose I come across as a golf snob, since you keep bringing it up , but I don't often point out privates as an alternative, since I have no control over that.

To complete that list, I would also add Boundary Oaks, Delta View, and Blue Rock East.

Sure they are no poppry ridge and certainly not in Wente's league, but they are inexpensive, fun courses with a much lower price point than Callippe.

At the end of the day its really about value.  Is Delta View a better value at $40 than Wente which is usually in triple digits? To me it is..but I guess its personal preferences at that point.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - you are a golf snob.  You ought to look at it as a badge of honor.  I know we all still love you.  Me, I'm a golf whore.  The world can judge for themselves who's better off.  

Now as for the courses, well... Roddy Ranch is pretty far out there, so I don't think counts for this discussion.  But they do run great specials, and $30 there is a great deal.  That being said, take price out of the equation and I prefer the course across the way, Shadow Lakes.  Lots of houses, true, but great greens and wonderful bunkers.  A greens nut like you ought to have a field day there.   I'm of a mind to agree with what Andrew Biggadike posted recently in stating a preference for Callippe over Poppy Ridge, but some of that might be the unwalkable nature of PR, as well as it being pretty old hat for me - I've played there a lot in the last few years and Callippe remains new.  Wente is a different beast, costing so much more... of course it's the best of these three, but at the price they charge it ought to be.  I rarely play there any more because I can't stomach the price.

As for the rest, all of the additions by Kalen are good ones, and if we are talking bang for the buck, then heck yeah Delta View at $40 is way better than Wente in triple digits.  Hell the best bang for the buck is likely Mare Island in Vallejo.  But Bondary Oaks and both Blue Rock courses are decent enough as well.

In any case to answer your question Kalen - the re-done Tony Lema is now called Monarch Bay and it's pretty damn good.  In fact I'd put it 2nd in the affordable category of all of these, falling behind only Metropolitan, and only slightly at that.  But it does seem to be constantly being repaired... I've heard that's all done now but who knows?  In any case one can also get great deals there, and it is a pretty darn unique course now, with great bunkers and some really cool greens and few very heroic shots required.  It's worth checking out for sure, unless one is of a mindset that his golf occurs only at great courses that is.  And if one has that mindset, then what is one doing at Roddy Ranch?

 

[ed_getka]

Boundary Oaks is a good value and decent course. For just pure dollars Callippe is impossible to beat for me because I get a local rate, and by the afternoon (with enough light to finish) I can play for $15 or so. At that point I figure Callippe is better than just beating balls at the range.
    You are right Tom, that Wente is expensive for what you get. The value argument is usually my tack, I didn't think I would hear you employ it.

  Roddy Ranch was pretty decent. The greens didn't have as much going on as I usually like to see, but there were some pretty good slopes so you did have to pay attention when putting. Certainly well worth $30.

I still maintain that Metropolitan, Stevinson Ranch, and Pasatiempo are the best public access choices at their various price points.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Nice mention on Mare Island.  I've heard so much both good and bad about it, I never did make it out to play there.  But supposedly its got a nice sandy base and always plays fast and firm even in winter conditions.

The "artist/course" formerly known as Tony Lema has always had its problems.  It was built on a old dump site so there is the constant problem with gases needing to ventilate from underneath.  It used to have white PVC pipes sticking up everywhere, but I would guess they went with different form factors during the re-word. I would also guess they have constant problems with certain spots settling and what not; perhaps that explains the constant repairs being made.  

Sounds like its worth playing when I get to the bay area again. Before the remake, even though it had a nice location, it was a bit of a dog track with soggy fairways, bare spots on the greens and poor maintainence.  I heard when they redid it they kept the same routing but switched the 9s.

And yes there are a couple of tee balls to be hit over that massive drainage canal that seperates the two parts of the course.

[Kalen Braley]

Boundary Oaks is a good value and decent course. For just pure dollars Callippe is impossible to beat for me because I get a local rate, and by the afternoon (with enough light to finish) I can play for $15 or so. At that point I figure Callippe is better than just beating balls at the range.
    You are right Tom, that Wente is expensive for what you get. The value argument is usually my tack, I didn't think I would hear you employ it.

  Roddy Ranch was pretty decent. The greens didn't have as much going on as I usually like to see, but there were some pretty good slopes so you did have to pay attention when putting. Certainly well worth $30.

I still maintain that Metropolitan, Stevinson Ranch, and Pasatiempo are the best public access choices at their various price points.

Hey Ed,

$15 is hard to beat for any course with the exception of a complete dog track and Callippee is nowhere near that category.

I think I got Tom started on the price points wars, but its a factor when comparing golf courses in the same region.  Stevinson Ranch is a nice course and I did get out there once, but talk about your long drives, that is out in the boonies.  

I know there are lots of options in the bay area region, but wouldn't Cinnabar Hills or San Juan Oaks be a closer and comparable alternative.  Or if you head north the Chardonnay at Napa is a nice course at a great price.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - the value argument is usually your tack?  Hmmmm... In the spirit of good fellowship I'll leave that alone, but suffice to say I have a different impression, especially given your past comments on the great "value" at $175 Pasatiempo.  But never mind... we each have our times we are into value and our times it doesn't matter; and yes, I think you have each of those courses correct.  Metro low end, Stevinson middle, Pasa high; although I might argue for Mare Island on the low end.   But close enough.  

Kalen - Mare Island does tend to play firm and fast always, or at least it has each of the three times I've played it, all at different times of the year.  One also can get dirt-cheap deals there.  It's pretty quirky and might be an acquired taste... but it is worth seeing again.

As for Monarch Bay, they re-did all the fairways in paspalum and that seems to have done the trick.  But yes, conditions remain a struggle.  Still there remains a lot of good there.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

You have to remember Ed drives 350 miles to his "home" course; so Stevinson is just a hop skip and a jump for him.    But yes it is out there... I let him go on that because we've covered that argument countless times before.  It is a pretty damn good course.

Cinnabar Hills is VERY good - all three nines - but again we are really broadening this out... what started on the Peninsula has morphed into the entire greater Bay Area!  Price-wise Cinnabar is definitely high-end, although deals can be had.  It's very different from Stevinson... tough walk, lots of up and down, lots of hills, lots of drama.  Pretty damn good though.

San Juan Oaks is kinda like Cinnabar with a few holes in the hills, and is also very good.  Price-wise it is middle-range like Stevinson.  I'd say Stevinson is the superior course, but SJ Oaks is in the conversation.  Geographically it depends on where you start... it's 40 minutes or so south of San Jose.  And if one is in the Bay Arean and going south, it's hard not to continue down to Monterey... where perhaps the best low-end value of all is, Pacific Grove.

Not the mention all the great high-end courses, and several other middles.....

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Wow I guess I really have been away from CA too long.  I forgot that a 1 hour commute to work is the norm and a 100 mile drive is just a short jaunt up the road.  But for now I'll stick with my 10 minute drive to work and back!!  

You're right, geographically this thread is getting way too broad.  Next thing you know we'll be advocating the 7+ hour road trip to bandon resort instead of playing your local track.

I think you make good points about Cinnabar, it is brutal to walk, but hey even Bandon makes cart exceptions if you bring a note!!!  

I don't know if I would agree with you on Pacific Grove.  No doubt 11-14 is a great stretch, but the front 9 is pretty much vanilla and 17-18 on the back 9 are completely forgetable.  I've played it twice, just don't know if a trip to the Montery Coast would be in order just to play PG. But it is the poor mans pebble no doubt about that.  An yes it has lots of deer jaunting all over the place to add to the ambiance, but if I want to see bambi I'll just go to the zoo!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - hell yes, we're all wacko here and drive WAY too much.  Ed just is our leader in such things.  

Re PG Muni, well... I find more to love than you do on the front nine, but the main point is assuming they keep fees in the <40 range, 11-16 alone make it a damn fine value (and yes I include 15 and 16 in the great holes).  It is tough to justify a cross-country trip just to play it, but it's very easy to justify a one hour drive.  Every time I play it I come back wondering why the hell I don't do it more often.

TH

[ed_getka]

Kalen,
   The courses I mentioned are what I like at those prices. San Juan Oaks and Cinnabar are nice courses, and the prices aren't outrageous, but I just prefer those I mentioned. For me it comes down to how much cool architecture am I getting for my $$.

Tom,
   Venturing as far afield as Pasa from our area, what public access course is better than Pasa at the same price or lower? What is the best public access golf course at any price in the Bay Area? (i.e. not Pasa

[ed_getka]

Kalen - hell yes, we're all wacko here and drive WAY too much.  Ed just is our leader in such things.  

Now, THAT is a badge of honor.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed:

Venturing as far afield as Pasa from our area, what public access course is better than Pasa at the same price or lower?
assuming the price is $175, then the answer is none.  But $175 remains a LOT of money to pay to play 18 holes of golf.


What is the best public access golf course at any price in the Bay Area? (i.e. not Pasa)
Pasatiempo.  But again, $175 remains a lot of money to play 18 holes of golf.

If these are the questions, then those are your answers.  This just was - up to this point - a discussion in which price was part of the equation.  And if it is part of the equation, it's hard to get too excited about Pasatiempo.  I bite the bullet and pay it about once a year... it just continues to piss me off that that's all I can afford.

But again, this comes down to our basic disconnect.  You'd gladly not play the game for as long as it takes to save the $175 to play Pasa; I could sooner gnaw off my arm than do that.

Vive l'difference!

TH

[ed_getka]

PG is a not a course to travel cross -country for, but if you are coming to the Monterey Peninsula for the biggies, PG is a great warm -up course. And for us "locals" it is worth the price for those fun holes on the back nine. As Tom points out there are some fun holes on the front side too.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   You MUST follow the rules. Pasa is not a choice for the second question.

[Tom Huckaby]

So you want to know what the second best public access course is in our area, regardless of price?  Why?  And does Monterey count or not?  Does Stevinson?  "Our area" can mean a lot of different things....

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen - hell yes, we're all wacko here and drive WAY too much.  Ed just is our leader in such things.  

Re PG Muni, well... I find more to love than you do on the front nine, but the main point is assuming they keep fees in the <40 range, 11-16 alone make it a damn fine value (and yes I include 15 and 16 in the great holes).  It is tough to justify a cross-country trip just to play it, but it's very easy to justify a one hour drive.  Every time I play it I come back wondering why the hell I don't do it more often.

TH

Tom,

I actually was only trying to suggest that the 1-2 hour drive from the bay area was not worth it, but hey we can always agree to disagree right?  

A funny story to go along with PG when I played it last.  We had 20-25 MPH sustained winds that were gusting up to 40 MPH.  When we got to the short 11th it played right in the teeth of that wind and none of us could make the required 100 yard carry over the iceplant down to the fairway, so we finally settled on a group mulligan to a drop in front.  Even then on my 4th shot I was 80 yards from the green and hit a full 8 iron and just barely made it on.

That same wind also made 12 nerve racking because you had to aim for the street to have any prayer of keeping your tee ball out of the massive dune on the right.  It was good fun though!!

So do you have a bay area top 10 Public course list then?

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - that is one hell of a wind!  Hard to get a sense of the course much when it's like that.  I do think it's always worth the drive from San Jose when I play it... but then again I am a golf whore, as I say.  

My top 10?  Never stopped to compile such a thing, not sure if I ought to now, given the dissection it's likely to result in.  It also would obviously be one list sans price, another totally different list if price is factored in. The first list would be a lot easier.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

 What is the best public access golf course at any price in the Bay Area? (i.e. not Pasa

I may sound like a broken record on this one but I have to go with Delta View.  Alister designed the original 9 and yes I know its not in its original state but all the strategies off the tee and the wicked greens are still there.  Hole 7, since they switched the 9s is just genius.  And the par 3 before that number 6 is one of the few greens where you are 10 feet from the hole and just praying you can 2 putt!!

I think Graves did a decent job with the 2nd 9 and sure its not in alisters league but it has some fun risk rewards holes and some interesting tee shots.

All this for $40 on the weekend, $30 on a weekday I beleive.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - I'd agree that on a bang for the buck list, Delta View would be right up there.  But as I say that's a tough list to compile... do you base it on normal prices or discounts or specials or resident fees or what?  Lots of parameters would need to be set.

In any case Delta View is pretty damn fun.  I hadn't played there in ages until about a year and a half ago... I certainly did not regret the hour or so drive I had to go play that.

I think I do like Mare Island better though, on the low-end category... but I do like weird short courses.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen - that is one hell of a wind!  Hard to get a sense of the course much when it's like that.  I do think it's always worth the drive from San Jose when I play it... but then again I am a golf whore, as I say.  

My top 10?  Never stopped to compile such a thing, not sure if I ought to now, given the dissection it's likely to result in.  It also would obviously be one list sans price, another totally different list if price is factored in. The first list would be a lot easier.

TH

If anything I think the wind made it play that much funner because it required that much more thought to be put into it.  Didn't really affect us too terribly on the front 9 as it plays in the trees, but on that back 9 as you know its all exposed and open.  I also did play the course once when the wind was a bit more normal of the 5-10 MPH variety.

As far as the list goes, humor us and go with the non-price factored list.  And to prevent a monterey area themed list, the Monterey penisula is excluded including the Santa Cruz area.  In that same spirit try to keep it to bay area, so that would mean stevinson ranch and freddies course are also out as well!!

[Mike Benham]

I go away for a day and a turf battle of what is or is not the Peninsula, and what is a golf snob breaks out ...

A few comments:

Crystal Springs:  A decent layout, holes altered or compromised due to driving range / road expansion (I'm surprised no one commented on the mobile home park off the 9th green / 10th tee ) but due to normally horrible conditions, steep green fees, fickle weather, it is not a desireable place to play.

That being said, there a few holes already mentioned that are worth the visit plus a driveable par-4 and some decent bunkering on the backside.

Shoreline:  Yes, you might consider it the best public on the Peninsula but that isn't saying much.  Conditions are usually spotty at best, with or without the coots and geese.

The Peninsula:  The southern border I would define as Menlo Park, maybe Palo Alto (although Palo Alto is at times defined as the birthplace of Silicon Valley so it can't be both ) and goes as far north as Burlingame / Millbrae.  San Francisco should never be defined as part of the Peninsula, it is The City.  

Callippe Preserve:  I've played it once, on a cold morning in February.  It deserves, for me, another look ...

Metropolitan:  I have been a big fan of Metro however, the last 2 times I have played there, the pace of play has been horrible, 4 hours to play 13 holes is not going to make be a repeat customer.

Monarch Bay:  Another stake in the ground that makes East Bay muni's better than the Peninsula.  Unique bunkering, many challenging holes but the one downside is the conditioning, not for a lack of trying by the course operators or the city.

My ranking of the inner bay courses would put Monarch Bay at the top followed by Metro, then Shoreline, Poplar, etc.

As for Poppy Ridge and Wente ... the primary advantage of Poppy is that there are usually open tee times and pace of play is decent.  Wente is higher priced and unwalkable ....

And the farther east you go, a Delta View at $ 40 and half a tank of gas to get there is not a bargain ...

[johnk]

Here's my public < 1hr from SJ airport list in my personal priority order.

Pasatiempo
Spyglass
Poppy Hills
San Juan Oaks
Harding
Bayonet
Cinnabar
Pajaro Valley
Poppy Ridge
Shoreline
Bonus Track: Emerald Hills

While I'm banging it out, here's my top 10 faves around here.  I haven't played CPC.

SFGC
Pasa
Pebble
 (a bit of a drop off here)
MPCC Shore
MPCC Dunes
O-Club Lake
Spyglass
Poppy Hills
Stanford
Burlingame

[Kalen Braley]

Mike, Very nice post!!

Penisula does lack good public courses, but I had never heard the dinstinction between it and san fran.  I guess thats what you get for growing up on the east bay side..  

Regarding Monarch Bay, it really sounds like I need to get back on this one because it really was undesirable before they remade it.

Does anyone else have any more input on Poplar?  No doubt its in a great spot, but I never played it cause it just didn't look that interesting from 101 on the numerous times I passed by.  Combine that with $50 + green fees and it just didn't appeal to me.

John,

Any thoughts on a top public list that only includes the immediate bay area?

[johnk]

Kalen,

That IS my immediate Bay Area list - all within 1 hour from San Jose Airport - (if you know the way to...)

Just take out the ones that are too far.  After Shoreline, things get pretty dire for me.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

That IS my immediate Bay Area list - all within 1 hour from San Jose Airport - (if you know the way to...)

Just take out the ones that are too far.  After Shoreline, things get pretty dire for me.

I can't believe Coyote Creek Golf club didn't make this list.  The Senior Tour was crazy to give up on this venue..  

In all seriousness though, with all the great places to play in the area, why can't the tours pick some of the better courses which seem to be fairly obvious to most on this site!

Or is it really about name chasing when picking the venues?