[PThomas]

played the new course at We Ko Pa the other day with three very nice guys...I thought a few of their comments and actions might be worth sharing

first of all, the very back tees/Tournament there measure 6912 - its a par 71, the back tees are 6603, the middles are 6252

two of them- A and B - played the very backs, and while they were both quite long, they spent an awful lot of time in the desert looking for balls..for ex, they both hit two off our fist tee, and couldn't find any of the 4 balls

the other played the backs, and he shouldn't have been there....18 is a 490 par 4, and there's no way he could be near that hole in 2..he said something like he wanted to get his money's worth

A and B also made a snide comment that the course is "only " a par 71

we played the back 9 first , so 9 was our last hole, a par 3....for a moment they forgot that it wasn't 18 and said the last hole shouldn't be a par 3, and one of them didn't like the fact that it was quite short (137)...course he then hit in the desert short and left

I guess we need more long, standardized par 72 courses

[Phil McDade]

Marshalls! A feature I usually loathe on courses, but they do have their place, and make them cigar-chomping, ball-buster types, too. You get one hole to prove your worth, then move up.

(Not entirely the answer -- I played a gruesome 5-hour round once at University Ridge near Madison, WI a few years back behind a bunch of obviously expense-account business folks who insisted on playing from the back tees at the course, which is quite penal in places off the fairway. Topped shot after shot, nary a 200-yard drive in sight, and the marshalls declined to do anything about it.)

[Dan Kelly]

played the new course at We Ko Pa the other day with three very nice guys.

Very nice, but completely clueless. I wonder how typical they are. I don't play with enough strangers to have a clue myself.

The line about the course's being "only" a par-71 is a classic!

Did they like the course? Did you?

[Brian Noser]

Welcome to public golf...

This is very common I sometimes play as a single and usually play the back tee wherever I play and with out fail the group I am playing with will most likely be 15-20 Hcp and playing the back tees. Usually nice guys but playing the wrong tees.

[PThomas]

played the new course at We Ko Pa the other day with three very nice guys.

Very nice, but completely clueless. I wonder how typical they are. I don't play with enough strangers to have a clue myself.

The line about the course's being "only" a par-71 is a classic!

Did they like the course? Did you?

the course is VERY walkable in a beautiful setting, so I liked it a lot....

A and B said they liked the other course there better, I think becuase this one was more narrow...they drove a cart , btw

Player C walked and I think liked this course better

[Doug Ralston]

I have watched many groups over at Fox Run [7100 yd, slope 143] topping their way off the back tees. Oddly, they even chose the most difficult and expensive of the three Kenton County courses on the site to do this.

Yet WE sometimes get derogatory comments for playing short tees. I know what I can do off the tee ...... a 200yd drive is a happy result for me. I play whatever tees gives me a reasonable chance to play my second shot to a long par-4. This is often the forward [say 'lady's] tee. I am not too proud to do this, but many apparently are.

Doug

[David Sneddon]

I know whenI go to a course, I'm looking at the tees which will give me 63-6600 yards - that's long enough for me.  I'm a 3hcp and can still hit the ball a decent ways, but find that that yardage usually gives me the best enjoyment of the course.

I play mostly public golf and the number of people playing the back tees who have absolutely no game to do so amazes me.  I get similar answers - 'want to get their money's worth' - well if their money's worth is losing a dozen balls because they can't make the forced carries or in the woods and water, I guess that is their idea of value.  The problem is, these clowns take 5 hours (in their carts) to complete their round, and would probably be charged with DUI were they driving a car, and not a golf cart.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sounds like you had a really fun day, Paul  

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

The issue in most instances is the failure of management to properly handle all the elements tied to the playing experience. Too many times you have an army of staffers at or around the clubhouse but literally no one is taking a proactive response when on the course.

Frankly, it galls me that after people plunk down serious money for a quality experience they get half-ass service on the course. Is there any real reason why marshalls are not stationed at key holes where daily bottlenecks usually occur?

In regards to where people play from -- I think staff should admonish people that clearly demonstrate they don't have the wherewithal to handle such a layout from extreme distances. For too many people it's like pissing in the wind -- simply a waste of time. If such people object to being informed by management -- then give them their $$ back for the benefit of all the other players -- particularly those who are stuck behind this slow moving parade.

Too often, many of the high-end facilities take the tack in quickly gathering your MasterCard / Visa but then going into slow motion when it comes time to handle the daily grind in moving players through the course of a round so that the enjoyment of the majority of the players can be maximized.

[George Pazin]

I've never really understood what the proper tees are. Some feel it's relative to your scoring ability, some feel it's relative to your length, and some just care if you keep up.

The 3 guys do sound kind of clueless, but I know a lot of golfers at many different levels and with many different backgrounds who are every bit as clueless, and no less opinionated.

[PThomas]

Paul:

The issue in most instances is the failure of management to properly handle all the elements tied to the playing experience. Too many times you have an army of staffers at or around the clubhouse but literally no one is taking a proactive response when on the course.

Frankly, it galls me that after people plunk down serious money for a quality experience they get half-ass service on the course. Is there any real reason why marshalls are not stationed at key holes where daily bottlenecks usually occur?

In regards to where people play from -- I think staff should admonish people that clearly demonstrate they don't have the wherewithal to handle such a layout from extreme distances. For too many people it's like pissing in the wind -- simply a waste of time. If such people object to being informed by management -- then give them their $$ back for the benefit of all the other players -- particularly those who are stuck behind this slow moving parade.

Too often, many of the high-end facilities take the tack in quickly gathering your MasterCard / Visa but then going into slow motion when it comes time to handle the daily grind in moving players through the course of a round so that the enjoyment of the majority of the players can be maximized.

well said Matt.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

I could care less what tees people play from -- PROVIDED they do keep up with the play and can finish in say 4 1/2 hours tops.

The BS is that too many facilities spend so much time promoting the food and drink profit margin -- both on and off course -- yet they have AMNESIA about WHY the hell people are there in the first place.

If I go to a first rate restaurant the service component is part and parcel of the experience (dining) when there. The golf side of that equation is no different IMHO.

[John Kavanaugh]

the course is VERY walkable in a beautiful setting, so I liked it a lot....

Hmmm..I put my toe in that review and it felt luke warm.

[PThomas]

the course is VERY walkable in a beautiful setting, so I liked it a lot....

Hmmm..I put my toe in that review and it felt luke warm.

I didn't mean it to be that way..let me fully think about it and I shall report back later in the week

[John Kavanaugh]

note:  I'm a Joe Sixpack.  Two of my favorite moments at Riviera was hearing the story about the Bogart tree and feeling like that cool dude was standing there with his cig hanging on his bottom lip and then seeing the White Shadow come in the dining room during lunch.  I am also not a fan of finishing par 3's even though I am a member of a club that has both 9 and 18 as 3 pars. (Quail Creek in Robinson, IL..a Killian restobomination.)  Just one reason I don't get out there much.

[Sean_A]

I've never really understood what the proper tees are.

George

I think the proper set of tees are the ones which allow the player to finish in close to 3.5 hours.  The target of 4.5 hours is crazy and perhaps the reason why it takes 4.5 hours to play at many places in the States.

Ciao

[Bruce Katona]

This thread ties very nicely into the discussion we had the other day on how/what we would degign into our courses if we were the owner.  Not everyone appreciated my bottom line focus, but as you can see by the experience related in this discussion, this is the customer one has at higher end public golf.  It is very easy to say to increase your customer service outside the pro Shop, but there is a cost associated with this.  As mentioned earlier , we manage this with 10 minute tee times and marshalls to move play....increasing tee times to 12 minutes if the course is difficult to navigate would also be helpful.

[PThomas]

I feel I should state that our group did NOT lag behind the group in front of us...I think it took is 4.5 hours to play

I never complained about my partners' pace of play...I just thought some of their comments and actions were interesting

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul:

.....Frankly, it galls me that after people plunk down serious money for a quality experience they get half-ass service on the course........

......-- I think staff should admonish people that clearly demonstrate they don't have the wherewithal to handle such a layout from extreme distances...........

 

Yeah, I love it when I pay $100 bucks and then get admonished.  That makes me put a five star rating on my "customer survey card."

[Rick Shefchik]

It's pretty hard not to keep up with the group ahead of you on public courses these days. There's always somebody ahead of you playing too slow -- probably from the wrong tees -- which makes it excusable for the groups behind them to play from the wrong tees. The mindset becomes: We're backed up anyway, so why not play from the tips?

Fortunately, I haven't run into a lot of those "get my money's worth" types when I play with strangers. I sometimes want to play from 7,000 yards, but invariably the guys I hook up with want to play from the whites, so I join them -- and our pace of play is still dictated by the groups in front of us.

I just wish rangers would work aggressively to close the gaps.

[Kalen Braley]

George:

I could care less what tees people play from -- PROVIDED they do keep up with the play and can finish in say 4 1/2 hours tops.

The BS is that too many facilities spend so much time promoting the food and drink profit margin -- both on and off course -- yet they have AMNESIA about WHY the hell people are there in the first place.

If I go to a first rate restaurant the service component is part and parcel of the experience (dining) when there. The golf side of that equation is no different IMHO.

I think this really hits the nail on the head.  Who cares where they play from as long as the keep up, and if not then pick up.

How often do we see the marshal camped out in front of the TV at the clubhouse instead of out there giving gentle nudges to people.  I'm in the camp that any message can be delivered, its just all in the delivery of that message in how it can be recieved.  

[Phil McDade]

On the other hand, me and my six-some (we started with two threesomes, and joined up after a hole) were admonished by a fellow golfer (in a cart, no less) about playing as a group of six one morning at my local 9-hole muni. The six of us were on pace for an hour and 15 minute round, because none of us use practice swings, or care too much about distance to the pin, or wind direction, or any of those other silly contrivences that make for 5-hour rounds. And walking, we were absolutely playing faster than the four clowns riding around in carts on a flat nine-hole course.

Matt's right; pace of play is the key issue.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

This reminds me of a similar story that happened a few years ago at Vistoso in Tucson when we were paired up with a guy who claimed to be a single digit handicapper and wanted to play from the tips.I said not for me. This was in February.So this guy tells me  that he hadn't played since October but "wanted to see the whole course." I don't think he parred one hole that day.I don't remember our pace of play. On the other hand, I've played some resort courses where the marshall at the first tee goes over the various tees with recommendations based on handicaps. Invariably, someone who joins my group moves back after the first hole.

[Kevin_Reilly]

If this is a reality check then I'll take up bowling:

Golf Cart Accessory

[Andy Doyle]

A reality check indeed - for the members of this DG.  I think this goes beyond pace of play or what tees are used and is indicative of what impresses the vast majority of players about a golf course.  In my experience the members of this DG have, by far, the minority opinion about what makes a great golf course or a great golf experience.

I've played with a group a couple of times at Reynold's Plantation.  To a man, they vastly prefer the National Course (Fazio) and the Oconee course (Rees Jones), and the main superlatives you hear are mostly related to the conditioning and the green speeds.  There is noticibly less love for Great Waters (Nicklaus) and the Plantation course (Cupp) although I think they are much more interesting.  

The kicker?  Even though it's right next door, it's almost impossible to get this group to play Cuscowilla.  I pressed really hard to get it included on one of the outings, and almost everyone bitched about how hard it was and how the conditioning suffered compared to the RP courses - scruffy, not green, not as manicured, etc.

I was incredulous until I realized they represent the vast golfing majority.  Donald Trump doesn't insist on huge, fake waterfalls to attract the likes of us - he's after the main market.

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