Bethpage Black: 4th vs. 5th

[AndrewB]

Which of the fourth and fifth at Bethpage Black do you think is a better hole?  Why?

[Aaron Katz]

Fourth.  I think the second shot is the equal of the Road Hole in terms of strategy.  The Fifth is a great hole, but there are lots of two-shotters with great diagonals.

[Eric Franzen]

Played the Black Course twice this year and would say the fourth.
All three shots (until' I end up in one of the bloody green bunkers) are really thrilling. The fifth is one fine two shotter though... and you can get a hot dog after putting out there

[Steve Lapper]

They both are great. If one was to compare a world-class par 5 to world-class par 4, it's apples v. oranges.

Personally, I think the 5th is a way tougher hole to par or make birdie on. There is no safety shot and the angles are so severe that only a really well hit drive and approach yields anything near par. The 4th, on the other hand can usually be navigated with sufficient safety(safe tee shot followed by a 3-5 wood up the right side leaving a more open angle to the green) so as to yield a par or even an occasional birdie.

[Jim Franklin]

I agree with Steve that the 5th is a much harder hole to make birdie than the 4th, but the 4th is my favorite hole there.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I agree with SteveL

After 70 plays the 4th never grows old.  It offers something most par 5's do not - a classic dilemma for the second shot.  

- In the rough or bad lie - Can I get over the cross bunker
- Normally - what angle to take where the left side directly at the green is shorter and easier to clear it offers a more difficult pitch for the third shot. -

The third shot is made more difficult by the front to back pitch of the green.

I think its Tillinghast's very best par 5 ever with the ones at Baltimore CC and #3 at Fenway a bit behind.

#5 is just a ball buster par 4 where the angles are everything.  Without two absolutely perfectly placed shots you need to work the ball left to right on the tee and right to left on the approach.  The green is very mundane once you get there. Left pins are really tough to get to.

[Steve Pozaric]

I have only played the Black once, but I liked the 4th better (not knowing what faced me, I went for (and made) the green in 2 which might have something to do with it   - when I got up there I realized it **might** not have been the smart play).  I think the layout of 4 allows for the player to have options, which I am not sure number 5 does.  I find myself agreeing with Steve that 5 would be the tougher of the two relative to par.

[Matt_Ward]

The 4th is the better strategic hole IMHO -- although I see both holes as being the opening entry to the qualities of the Black after going through the preliminary first three holes.

The key is the chain reaction bunker that splits the lower tier from the upper tier. Players need to take heed of the left fairway bunker because if you yank it in there the probability in getting your second shot to the top tier is far from automatic. If you lay-up to take it out of play then you are left with an appropriately more demanding 3rd shot to a blind target with a fearsome frontal bunker.

Many times people often speak about the chain reaction bunkers you see with other Tille layouts like the 17th at the Lower at Baltusrol or the two you find to a lesser extent at Ridgewood -- but the 4th at BB is clearly one of the finest holes I have ever encountered from the totality of Tillie layouts I have ever played.

What makes the hole so unique is the glorious terrain you encounter as you walk from the 3rd green to the back tee position. You see the entire scope of the hole and it speaks to the broader strength of the Black -- the magnificent scale of the entire property.

The 4th is a great gamble hole because long hitters if they flirt with the left fairway bunker can get a boost of yardage and leave themselves within range with the 2nd shot. However, the 2nd needs to be hoisted in the air to the equivalent of a Ray Guy punt because the target is quite shallow and the fall-offs to the left and rear can make recoverying all but certain for anyone save the likes fo Tiger, Phil, etc, etc.

[Guy Nicholson]

The fifth is one fine two shotter though... and you can get a hot dog after putting out there

All you get is a hot dog?

[Phil_the_Author]

The fourth is the greater hole because it isnpires whereas the fifth is the better hole because it challenges.

Both are among the handful of holes that can be considered among the best in the world.

[Glenn Spencer]

They are both like children to me. The 4th scares me a lot more than the 5th. I think it is a lot easier to make a big number on 4. If you don't believe me, try looking behind that green sometime. I don't exactly trust myself with an 80 yard wedge all the time, so if my tee shot is not what I want, then this hole can be terrifying for me. 5 is one of the greatest par 4's that I have seen and I think those are harder to build, so I will take 5, now that I think of it.

[Matt MacIver]

Only played it once, but on 5 the strategy was immediately apparent, whereas on 4 I couldn't (didnt?) see it until I looked back (and then, logged on here).  Thus I liked 5 much more, but now I'm very interested in getting back to exam 4, especially the right-side route.  

I do agree that the world needs more strategic 2nd-shot par 5s, esp. given technology.  

[Dave Bourgeois]

The 4th on the Black is the hole that started my interest in GCA. I absolutely love everything about it and always look forward to the various dilemas that can be presented.

5 is an awesone hole, but for someone of my skill is a bit more one dimensional.  

[Jesse Jones]

The 4th.
The 5th is one of my all time favorites, but no matter what I score on 4..I'll make the walk after knowing to play 5 conservatively--take your 5 and move on.
On the walk from 3 to 4 everything from 3 to 7 is in play.
What I love about the course is, 1-2-3 are middle of the road in terms of difficulty..
When making that walk from 3 to 4 with a good round going, the hole looks easy..
String three bogies (or worse) together the hole looks real hard..
No matter what..
One bad swing, anywhere, and a series of challenges appear that make par almost impossible.
 

[Aaron Katz]

Does anybody think that the 3rd hole -- at least from the tips -- is an incredibly difficult par 3?  

[Glenn Spencer]

Does anybody think that the 3rd hole -- at least from the tips -- is an incredibly difficult par 3?  

Yes!!!!

[Jesse Jones]

It maybe.
But I don't play from the tips.
You don't want to see my game from back there.
I have witnesses..

[Geoffrey Childs]

Does anybody think that the 3rd hole -- at least from the tips -- is an incredibly difficult par 3?  

Yes!!!!

#2 is a wonderful driving hole where shaping the ball is necessary and the uphill 2nd is almost always from an uneven lie.  Its an intimidating approach until you realize - anywhere but short.  This could be world class with a better green.

#3 - YES- - distance control combined with choosing a line is the key to the hole.  The diagonal (front right -back left) MUST be factored - its so easy to go long and that is really asking for a difficult recovery for 3.

[Carlyle Rood]

Perhaps these photos would be helpful to the discussion.


Hole 4


Hole 4 (see scale of bunkers as they relate to golfer on right)


Hole 5 (from tee)



Hole 5 (to green)
Obviously, a landscape architect did not site the restrooms.

[Glenn Spencer]

Geoffrey,

For what it is worth, I thought that 2 had the slickest green on the entire course. I hated being right and putting down to the left pin and you have to hit the right side of the green there. I think that green is just perfect for the hole. Didn't Tiger 3 jack there from about 18 feet on Sunday in 02?

[Aaron Katz]

The amazing thing about the 4th is that, unlike the 5th, it really doesn't get any easier downwind.  If the 5th is downwind, you can just bomb a drive over the very right edge of the diagonal hazard, which leaves a fairly straightforward (albeit uphill and half-blind) approach with a mid-iron.  If the 4th is downwind, the second shot isn't any easier -- I'm not sure how the green could be held with a wood or long-iron downwind.  The player might be tempted to go directly at the green in two, but the prudent play continues to be long and right.  If anything, playing the hole downwind will increase the scoring average, since the player is likely to be tempted to try something foolish.  

Can anyone think of another par 5 that arguably plays more difficult downwind?

[Jim Nugent]

Both are among the handful of holes that can be considered among the best in the world.

FWIW, Golf Magazine and George Peper rated number five as one of the 18 best holes in the world.  I think they rated number four as one of the top 100.

On number 4, what is the distance to that first set of bunkers that diagonally crosses the fairway?

[AndrewB]

FWIW, Golf Magazine and George Peper rated number five as one of the 18 best holes in the world.  I think they rated number four as one of the top 100.

I was actually looking at that book this morning and it was, once again, bothering me, which is why I asked the question.   A number of times I've read and heard people say that the fifth is the best hole on the course and I had always thought that four was a much better hole.  I'm hard-pressed to think of a better par five that I've played, at the moment.

It's been several years since I've been out there, but four always seemed to have a lot more options and there are several choices to consider on each shot.  The real eye-opener for me was that hitting it past the green on the right is just as good a strategy (if not a better one) as either a traditional layup (short of the green) and going for the green in two, which are the options one is typically restricted to on par fives.  The bunker short right, slope of the green away from the bunker, and the opening at the "back" right of the green really make the area past the green pitching back towards the hole ideal.  I remember being very surprised, even confused, by this design the first time I got up to the green; once I figured out what Tillinghast had done I wanted to run back to the tee and play it again.

Thanks everyone for the responses.  They confirm that others see the greatness of the fourth hole and that I'm not crazy (well, at least in this regard).

[Ted Kramer]

I've never seen/played 2 holes that fit better back to back than #4/#5 at BB. I prefer #4 as I think it is the single best golf hole that I've ever encountered. But #5 isn't far from the top of my list of favorite all time par4s.

The more I think about myself as a golfer the more comfortable I become in descirbing myself as one who often prefers the antiseptic test over the whimsical adventure. . .

-Ted

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

You asked, "On number 4, what is the distance to that first set of bunkers that diagonally crosses the fairway?"

It depends on which tee and where you are playing from. The photo above was taken with a long lens from the upper and back championship tee. The turn of the left corner bunker complex is 229 yards from the center of the green. This means from the center lower tee measurement of 517 yards it would take a 288 yard drive to reach it. From the championship tee above ( and I am speaking from memory on this one) as about 550+ it is a 320+ yard drive to there.

The lower base of the cross bunker (Glacier) is about 180 yards to the green from the left hand corner and 155 from the top of the rise.

Andrew, you commented, "I was actually looking at that book this morning and it was, once again, bothering me, which is why I asked the question.  A number of times I've read and heard people say that the fifth is the best hole on the course and I had always thought that four was a much better hole.  I'm hard-pressed to think of a better par five that I've played, at the moment."

One of the most impressive things about the Black is that as great as 4&5 are and how so many consider them the best, theer are many others who consider other holes to be the finest on the course and whose favorite ones are others.

For example, I believe 12 to be the best hole on the course and 15 is my absolute favorite golf hole in the world. Many consider 17 among the greatest par-threes out there and cite 16 as the best hole...

The number of great courses where there can be a legitimate argument as to which of 5 or even 6 holes are the best on the course, especially where that same publication that called #5 one of the best 18 ever also listed 4 of the holes as among the 500 best in the world, can be counted on one hand - if that!