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Ed Tilley

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Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« on: January 04, 2007, 12:52:25 PM »
My impression from reading this site is that Donald Steel doesn't have a great reputation here. Is this fair?

His changes at Hoylake seemed to be well received and, from personal experience, the 7 holes he designed at Enniscrone (2-5, 14-16) are superb in a stunning if extreme location. It would have been easy to muck these holes up (see Cashen course at Ballybunion) but he did a great job, with only one par 3 which are surely the easiest holes to design in extreme land.

Any excuse to put pictures of Enniscrone on this site  :) . All from the excellent www.golfarchitecturepictures.com

2nd hole




3rd



4th





5th



14th





15th





16th





« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 12:56:08 PM by Ed Tilley »

Jon Wiggett

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2007, 01:13:23 PM »
Ed,

I think you will find what upset alot of people on this site is his involvement in the apparent distruction of Musselburgh Golf Links.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Donald Steel
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2007, 01:14:20 PM »
What a good reason to post those pictures!

I'm afraid there are many detractors on this forum.  I am not in their number.  Before anyone starts to criticise his work at Hoylake, do we know precisely what his brief was?  Do we know to whose brief he was working?  The criticism stems mainly from the fact that the new greens are not in the same style as the pre-existing ones.  I asked the question at the Hoylake dinner of whether, if the R&A demanded it, they would sanction the alteration of other greens in this manner.  The plain fact is that Hoylake is a course which has been developed many times, with a host of individual alterations made for one reason or another and - like Birkdale and Sandwich - it will probably continue to be developed in this way to keep up with the requirements of a major championships.  Is there general dislike of his previous alterations to championship courses made in order to keep them in the roster, and to satisfy the R&A's requirements?  What of the alterations made by others?  Or are all championship courses preserved in aspic and never touched?

It was Darwin who said of MacKenzie that, 'some of his holes on flat, dull, and featureless land come as near to making a silk purse out of a sow's ear as is humanly possible.'  I am not going to be silly enough to compare MacKenzie with Steel, but it is when you encounter rebuilding work to minor courses done by people such as Steel and Hawtree on minimal budgets, probably driven by an edict of the health and safety brigade, that you begin to appreciate the skill of their work.

I'm afraid too many cruel remarks have been made on this site about Donald Steel for him to take part in these discussions, and I very much doubt that he would wish to contribute to the interview section, given such treatment.  If any of us has the power to write about golf courses as eloquently and with such keen observation as Steel has done over many years perhaps we might then have the credentials to criticise him as we do.  I, for one, am not even in the same book, let alone on the same page as Steel and will, therefore, refrain from criticism of him.

Ed Tilley

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2007, 02:42:53 PM »
Sean,

My understanding is that the 18th was redisigned rather than designed afresh. I never actually played the old course so I could be wrong.

Ed

Bill_McBride

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2007, 03:36:56 PM »
Mark

I haven't noticed many scathing remarks about Steel on this site, but I could be mistaken.  I for one think Steel did a very good job at Enniscrone and Pennard, two of my favourite courses.  Additionally, his Classics of ... is well, a classic.  I have a lot of time for the man.

Ed

Thanks for posting!  I have to get back to Enniscrone soon.  Didn't Steel do the 18th at Enniscrone?  I was under the impression it was a new hole.  

Ciao

Sean, what work did Steele do at Pennard?  That would be interesting to learn, as everything there looked so damned old! In a good way!

I thought the design work he did at Hoylake was mixed.  The new 5th green (old 3rd, the par 5, I will never get the old and new routings straight!) fit into the context of the existing holes very well.  The bunkers were very similar to those on the other greens.  That is a great piece of work.

However, the new 1st and 2nd greens were quite different and I think that's where the criticism comes in.  Not different from the old 17th/18th (new 1st and 2nd, see what I mean?  :P) but from the remainder of the existing greens.  I don't think anybody can pick at him for not replicating the replaced greens.  They weren't bad greens, they just didn't fit in with the rest.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2007, 04:26:06 PM »
I'm sure someone will put me straight if I've got this one wrong. But didn't they tell us that Steel's work at Hoylake was at the request of the club to sort out the old 17th green roadside problem and toughen up the old girl in the hope of getting the nod from the R&A?  Hence he was asked to produce a really 'challenging' green for the old 18th as befits the finish of a championship course.  Only later did the R&A say yes you can have the Open but the routing must be changed.  If you play 18 at the end of the round the green works well. IMHO.

Hopefully Philip or Alistair can tell us if they've voted on which routing the club will have going forward.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Michael Dugger

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2007, 04:26:36 PM »
I thought the primary complaint of his body of work was his effort at St. Andrews, just exactly what course I cannot recall.

 
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Brian Phillips

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2007, 04:32:29 PM »
The Eden redesign.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom_Doak

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2007, 05:50:57 PM »
Mark:

Donald Steel was very kind to me when I was introduced to him by Herbert Warren Wind on my year overseas, and I have never forgotten that kindness.  He took time to play with me at Sunningdale and introduce me to all the characters there, and to show me the Duchess course at Woburn.

However, the case you make for him -- that some of the changes to Hoylake or other courses were part of his "brief" and therefore shouldn't count positively or negatively -- I think that part of your logic is wrong, unless you also say you can't give him any praise for the parts he did right, because those might have been part of the same "brief".  I have declined becoming involved at a number of clubs for precisely that reason, I don't want to "take credit for" [i.e. be stuck with] someone else's choices.

The changes to the Eden were a mess.  Otherwise, for the most part, I think the reaction to Donald's work here has been largely positive ... lots of people have said they like Skibo, Redtail, Carnegie Abbey, and other courses in his portfolio.

There were two or three jobs in the States where the client interviewed myself, Bill Coore and Donald Steel as three options for a designer ... I was always a bit surprised by that because I think his style is rather different from mine or Bill's, but he is one other forced to wear the scarlet "M" for minimalist on his sweater.

Bill_McBride

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2007, 06:37:32 PM »
I must be one of the few that thinks the new 17th (Open 1st) was very well done.  The green is superb.  I especially like the falloff on the right which really comes into play for those coming in from the left -the shorter side of the dogleg.  

Believe it or not, Steel did the green for #4.  The green used to be located to the right and just short of the dune which has bunkers in front of it.  He also did the green for #5, but it was altered later to make it more accomodating for aerial shots!  Steel also built the tee for #6.  

Sean, since I've only played Hoylake in the 2006 Open routing, please humor me!

#1 - this is a very good green but it doesn't fit the rest of the course.  The bunker high sides, that create those wonderful slopes down onto all the other greens and cause wild caroms, were set at green level, as I recall, and just missed the feeling of the rest of the greenside bunkers.

#2 - again, a good green and pretty wild in fact, but out of character with the rest of the course.  Maybe that's okay, but I think consistency is important with older courses such as Hoylake.

#5 -the par 5 dogleg left up the gentle slope.  Here the bunker tops were similar to others that were there before, and I thought that green was very harmonious.  Beautiful work.

#6 - the par 3.  If you tell me that's also a new Steel green, then it's in the same class with #5 as it fit right in.  

That makes me wonder even more about the schizophrenia of the new #1 and #2 greens.

Of course the original #1 (new #3), dead flat on the ground hard by the cop, is like nothing else on the golf course!  So there you go!   ;D

I would love to get back to Hoylake but it would be hard to recreate that event.  It was great being introduced to such a classic course in such good company.  How far away from Hoylake do you live?  Hmmm.

Bill_McBride

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2007, 07:19:36 PM »
Sean, I was thinking about how wonderful it would be to be a national member of Hoylake!  ;D  It's a bit far from Florida.

The Wallasey Open would be a blast.  Let me think - it's a Stableford, right?  ;)

Bill_McBride

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2007, 08:30:16 PM »
Sean, you should be like some of the GCA guys - they heard there was a 14-club limit so they started joining other clubs like crazy!  ;)

Brendan Dolan

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2007, 12:02:28 AM »
Really enjoyed this course on both my visits.  I really liked the two short par fours 12 and 13.  Overall a great course and a must play when in Ireland.

Brendan

Ally Mcintosh

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2007, 04:38:30 AM »
out of interest, i actually just played the Eden for the first time during the summer... I'm sure it's been discussed ad nauseum but anyone care to give me a brief synopsis on what changes Steel made and why they think of them as a mess?

thanks

did Steel not redesign the Jubilee as well? What's the opinion of those changes? it's the only course on the links i haven't played

 :)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2007, 06:16:35 AM »
My impression from reading this site is that Donald Steel doesn't have a great reputation here. Is this fair?


Ed,

I posted it but could not find the changes that were done a year or two ago on the 18th at Enniscrone. I have not seen it in person yet, but they took a mundane hole and made it more visually appealing at the very least.

Redanman and I both like Carnegie Abbey more than most here. For me it has excellent greens, unique bunkering and nice variety. The finish is a question mark as it finishes along the water. I want to love 18, but only like it as it is a little tight which forces you to play it safe to the short 4. 17 was a wetlands issue I assume.

The Vineyard Club does not have the rolling terrain of CA as it sits next to the flat airport. However it has similar interesting greens and bunkering. I would like to see it in different conditions as it was not firm when I played it. It has huge restrictions on the maintenance from the Martha's Vineyard enviromentalist, so I am not sure that will happen. In a nutshell, I like Donald Steel's work and I make it a point to see his courses when reasonable travel is involved.

Frank Pont

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2007, 01:29:50 PM »
Fully agree with Tom's comment that Steel is gentleman. I received a very kind and encouraging letter from him when I was studying golf architecture in Edinburgh.

I understand most of Steels work the last few years was done by Martin Ebert and Tom MacKenzie. They now have taken Steels practice over see www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk

M+E seem to have done the work at Hoylake and Royal Aberdeen.

I like most of their M+E's newbuild projects I have seen and played, such as the new holes at Eniscrone, Cragielaw and Haverleij (a course in Holland).

Howevere I am not keen on their renovation work. Main issue is that they have a tendency to apply the same type of greens on a variety of course types. In my view a renovated green on a Braid course should look like a Braid green, and therefore different than say a renovated Colt or Simpson green on a Colt or Simpson course. Unfortunately is not the case in most of the renovation work I have seen, where the greens look like Donald Steel greens no matter what the original course looked like.

However the same issue is true for the Colt, Simpson and von Limburger restoration/renovation work of well known architects such as Hawtree (UK) and Staedler (Germany) that I have seen.

But then keep in mind I might be biased since I am active in the same field  :) .....

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2007, 04:41:49 PM »
Frank,  That's a very perceptive account of your observations.  Unfortunately, I now have to ask you to describe the differentiating features which make Braid greens different from Colt or Simpson or Limburger greens.  If you can put those differences in simple terms you may well have made the greatest contribution to this site yet - and I am not being clever-clever, I mean it genuinely.

Jon Wiggett

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2007, 04:46:20 PM »
I also have to say that of the courses that I have played that have been worked on by Donald Steel that I have found them to be of a very high standard from a GCA point of view.

Matthew Hunt

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Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2007, 05:33:47 AM »
He butchererd the last "Tom Morris" green at RCD when he redid the Annesly Links.

I rember telling my dad when I was three that it was the best hole on the course but I cant remember much of the actual hole :)

ForkaB

Re:Donald Steel - with Enniscrone pics
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2007, 06:38:53 AM »
Steele is one of the whipping boys here, very possibly because he gets commisions that the MFA's on this site might have wanted to get.  Skibo comes to mind, as does the work at Hoylake.

Last Steele course I played (and I didn't know it at the time--two months ago) was Il Picciolo on the slopes of Mount Etna.  It was significantly better than the Dye Italian course I have played (Franciocorta), and overall a VERY good use of difficult terrain (lava fields over old vineyards...).  The bunkers were just flat eye candy, but otherwise it is a course I would happily play again.

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