Golfweek State-by-State

[Doug Ralston]

BTW, what does anyone think of Elk Ridge in relation to this list?

[Doug Ralston]

And WAIT!

No one has even mentioned Timberstone, of whom I have heard many great things everywhere else. I have seen it rated as high as #2, and as I recall now, GD gave it 5 *'s till recently, now 4.5 *'s. What's up with this?

I HAVE to get to Michigan this year somehow!

Doug

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

I guess you can call me crazy!!  

I can see how someone would prefer Trophy Club over Purgatory, but to me the green complexes at Purgatory and the greenside bunkering make it better.  But that is probably my taste.  The first time I played the course I wasn't overly enthused, but after playing it multiple times I've been converted.  Trophy Club was very good and is probably my #2 in the state that I have played behind Purgatory.  But having seen a lot of Dye/Liddy courses it didn't have the impact I guess.  But I wouldn't begrudge anybody for placing Trophy ahead of Purgatory.  I would probably put the Fort right behind them at #3.  All of them are different courses that just appeal to different tastes I think.  I actually know people that can't stand any of them though, like my father.  He thinks Bear Slide is better than all of them.  

Andy,

What else is good up north?  I've heard good things about Blackthorn and also Cobblestone up near Fort Wayne.  My brother-in-law thinks it is the best public in that part of the state.  But he is highly impressed by things of little substance.  He did marry my sister after all!  

Insert rim shot here.  
   

Chris,

Not calling you crazy, just mildly insane. When you were at Purgatory, didn't you feel the slighest bit overwhelmed, I mean it is a bit of overkill, don't you think? I played it all the way back, even the 16,789 yard par 5 and I played really well. Every thing was there for me to like it, I just didn't. I didn't feel like it was a real golf course. I don't know how to express it, but it just felt like a little much. I will say that nothing at Purgatory stuck out as bad to me, but nothing that was real good either. What were the holes that you liked so much?

[Chris_Blakely]

Doug,

I would guess that no one has mentioned Timberstone because not many have played it.  Iron Mountain is 8 hours or more from Detroit.  And, Iron Mountain is 2 hours from Marquette.

Chris

[Doug Ralston]

One more comment.

It must be particularly gratifying to Tom Doak to see his course 'High Pointe'  so well received that it is both #10 AND #12. It sure cuts out someone from the list though, doesn't it?  

Doug

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan and other Washingtonians...

What's up with WA only have 5 worthy of the list? There must be 5 other worthy candidates.


Washington
1. Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Bremerton (m)
2. Trophy Lake Golf & Casting, Port Orchard (m)
3. Semiahmoo, Blaine (m)
4. Port Ludlow Resort (Tide/Timber), Port Ludlow (m)
5. Desert Canyon, Oreland (m)

We dont have much.
But, if I were to rate.

1. Gold Mounatin, Olympic
2. Washington National
3. Classic GC
4. Indian Canyon (Based solely on reviews from others)
5. Harbour Point

Not much but it works...

[Tim Leahy]

Its interesting to see that Golfweek panelists also have new course envy much like the other magazines.  #6 Callippe Preserve is a very new public golf course which is pretty good, but not nearly as good as most of the courses listed below it.  
I'll give them credit for identifying Coyote Moon on the list.
California
1. Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach (No. 5 c)
2. Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach (No. 15 m)
3. Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz (No. 33 c)
4. Rustic Canyon, Moorpark (No. 75 m)
5. Barona Creek, Lakeside (No. 93 m)
6. Callippe Preserve, Pleasanton (m)*
7. PGA West (Stadium), La Quinta (m)
8. Darkhorse, Auburn (m)
9. Saddle Creek, Cooperopolis (m)
10. Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach (m)
11. Golf Club at Whitehawk Ranch, Clio (m)*
12. Shadow Ridge, Palm Desert (m)*
13. Torrey Pines (South), La Jolla (c)
14. Coyote Moon, Truckee (m)
15. Pelican Hill (Ocean), Newport Coast (m)

I have played all listed but am baffled by Callippe's inclusion. What about La Purisima, Sandpiper, Rancho San Marcos, Harding, Roddy Ranch, Angeles National, and Maderas? I could name at least ten more that are better than Callippe.

[Mike Benham]

I have played all listed but am baffled by Callippe's inclusion. What about La Purisima, Sandpiper, Rancho San Marcos, Harding, Roddy Ranch, Angeles National, and Maderas? I could name at least ten more that are better than Callippe.

Tim -

I was thinking the same thing, not so much that Callippe shouldn't be in the Top 10 but it has only been open for such a short period of time, it's hard to believe it developed such a following or that many raters would have had a chance to visit.

Throw in Stevinson Ranch, Poppy Hills, Bayonet from this area as additional candidates ...

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Gents - my understanding re how Golfweek does things - and Mr. Klein or one of the raters can correct me if I'm wrong - is that for their best in state rankings there is no minimum number of rater submissions required.

So.. in the case of Callippe, all it would seem to take is one or two very enthusiastic positive ratings submitted, no others given, and voila, very high best in state results.

That's a logical deduction for what must have happened here.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jordan,

           How could I forget the Classic!! One of my personal favs..

           Now with Harbour Pointe your just being silly.  

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

For those mentioning the Indiana layouts -- I also weigh in with those favoring The Trophy Club over Purgatory -- really enjoyed both courses -- save for the inane l-o-n-g par-5 13th at Purgatory. Tim Liddy did a stellar job with Trophy Club -- how it escapes even a whiff of national attention for top public layouts really makes me scratch my head.

Doug W:

The Colorado list has at least one glaring omission --

Bear Dance in Larkspur.

The list also includes one course simply because of the better companion course -- the Fazio layout at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott. How anyone believes the TF layout can reach the top 20 in Colorado public is beyond me and I've played more than a fair share to make such a strong statement.

Glenn S:

Nothing -- repeat after me -- can touch New York on the private side -- it blows away all states and has a substanial --repeat after me again - substanial lead against Ohio from either a depth perspective or from a top five or top ten -- you pair it anyway you like.

Ditto the same for Pennsy but a bit less so on the private side.

Ohio is blessed with many superb private clubs but The Empire and Keystone States have the better lot on that front.

On the flip side the public equation in New York rests squarely with what the Black can offer at Bethpage. Yes, there are a few others of note but the spacing between the totality of the elite private is eons beyond that of the public side.

The same holds true for Pennsy -- you could simply name the courses in and around the greater Philadelphia area and you would be bringing forward an all-star listing of private gems.

In Ohio you do have some unique public layouts that are no less equal to what you find with New York and Pennsy.

One other thing Glenn -- you need to re-read what I posted --I did say no two states in the country have the wide gap between top tier private and public as NY and PA provide.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I find both Golfweek and Golf Digest state lists are subject to discussion and criticism when one gets to lesser traveled areas like Kentucky or my beloved Louisiana. As Joel and others noted the Ohio, California and Texas amoung othes are pretty good. I feel the state lists will improve as the business of building and educating a raters organization evolve and improve with time.

[Doug Wright]

From a tour of some RTJ Trail courses last spring, I'm surprised that (I think) only one Trail course is on the Alabama list, Grand National Lake, and it isn't even the better of the two courses at the facility! IMO Grand National Links is a far better golf course from every perspective.
Alabama
1. Limestone Springs, Oneonta (m)
2. Kiva Dunes, Gulf Shores (m)
3. Capstone Club, Brookwood (m)*
4. FarmLinks Golf Club at Pursell Farms, Sylacauga (m)
5. Grand National (Lake), Opelika (m)

I think the Alabama list and its lack of Trail courses is pretty insightful.  The Trail courses are good and enjoyable to play but have a marked sameness to them architecturally (a thread not too long ago referred to them as the Red Lobster or Olive Garden of GCA).  The top four on the list are better than anything on the Trail, or at least as good, IMHO.   If you did a top ten public in the state, Trail courses would dominate the bottom half though.  

John,

Agreed, though Grand National Links was far better than Grand National Lake IMO and, along with the Senator at Capitol Hill, was the best of the lot at the three venues we visited (the other being Cambrian Ridge).

[Chris_Blakely]

Sean,

I would also go with Hunter's Ridge over the Orchards.  I would not go with Hunter's Ridge over the other courses that Brian and I listed (for the most part) that did not make the list.  I prefer The Chief, Hawk's Eye, Marywood, The Mines, Diamond Springs, to name a few over The Orchards and Hunter's Ridge.  I wonder if the RTJ II billing is helphing the Orchards as well as hosting the US Pub Links 4 or 5 years ago.

Chris

[Doug Ralston]

Sean,

Timberstone was not mentioned, as I said. I have not played most of these courses, so I cannot say anything certain. But literally every site except this one has listed Timberstone #2 - #5. For me it simply looks like my kind of course.

Also not mentioned was Elk Ridge, which my friend Moe thought very well of.

Michigan certainly looks like public golf central. I must go!

[Glenn Spencer]

Gents:

For those mentioning the Indiana layouts -- I also weigh in with those favoring The Trophy Club over Purgatory -- really enjoyed both courses -- save for the inane l-o-n-g par-5 13th at Purgatory. Tim Liddy did a stellar job with Trophy Club -- how it escapes even a whiff of national attention for top public layouts really makes me scratch my head.

Doug W:

The Colorado list has at least one glaring omission --

Bear Dance in Larkspur.

The list also includes one course simply because of the better companion course -- the Fazio layout at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott. How anyone believes the TF layout can reach the top 20 in Colorado public is beyond me and I've played more than a fair share to make such a strong statement.

Glenn S:

Nothing -- repeat after me -- can touch New York on the private side -- it blows away all states and has a substanial --repeat after me again - substanial lead against Ohio from either a depth perspective or from a top five or top ten -- you pair it anyway you like.

Ditto the same for Pennsy but a bit less so on the private side.

Ohio is blessed with many superb private clubs but The Empire and Keystone States have the better lot on that front.

On the flip side the public equation in New York rests squarely with what the Black can offer at Bethpage. Yes, there are a few others of note but the spacing between the totality of the elite private is eons beyond that of the public side.

The same holds true for Pennsy -- you could simply name the courses in and around the greater Philadelphia area and you would be bringing forward an all-star listing of private gems.

In Ohio you do have some unique public layouts that are no less equal to what you find with New York and Pennsy.

One other thing Glenn -- you need to re-read what I posted --I did say no two states in the country have the wide gap between top tier private and public as NY and PA provide.

Matt,

I did read what you said and what I read is what I disagree with to some extent. New York does have the best set of privates in the country in my opinion, that is not a point of contention for me. Pennsylvania having better privates than Ohio is up for debate to me and Ohio having these interesting public courses also is. What is so damn interesting in Ohio on the public side? Pennsylvania privates? What are we talking here, Philly area, Lancaster, Oakmont, Field Club, Fox Chapel, Moselem Springs and a few other solid Moraine in Ohio type courses. How is this so overwhelmingly better than Ohio, considering there is such a dearth on the Ohio side? Say what you will about NY and PA, but I have yet to see any evidence that Ohio doesn't belong in the conversation or win it when it comes to great privates and no publics. One could very easily say that The Black and The Red ruin New York's argument. I would play Hershey 10 times before playing any public in Ohio. Ohio's main problem is that it does not have any of the niche resorts that the other states have. I can't blame anybody though, Ohio is no vacation.

[Matt_Ward]

Glenn:

C'mon partner - you're losing some serious credibility on the better private clubs -- Buckeye v Keystone States. Please match it up anyway you like -- from a top five, top ten, top 25 and I'll be more than willing to show the edge belongs to the home of Ben Franklin.

Glenn -- put Oakmont and Merion together and they BLOW AWAY any top two you have from Ohio. Please don't even think in telling me The Golf Club (which I like a lot) and Muirfield Village can sniff what the two I just mentioned are about or any other combo for that matter. More than eager to continue with a top five or top ten situation. You also seem to forget the so-called "lesser" known Pennsy courses such as Scranton, Sunnehanna, and Laurel Valley (quite good for Dick Wilson and blows away what you find at Coldstream as a quick parallel.), to name just a few.

I'll say this again in the event you must have skipped something I wrote -- just the greater Philadelphia area listing of top tier private clubs can beat out most all of the states in the USA. I mean there is no less than 6-8 top tier courses one can mention simply from that area -- and my numbers are on the conservative side.

Glenn, the point you keep on missing is that the edge goes to NY and Pennsy simply because the private side is a good bit ahead of Ohio while the public side is roughly a wash. You keep on harping about BB but the simple fact is that after that the bar does drop considerably -- Pennsy is just about a wasteland until the likes of Lederach came forward this year and the report on Morgan Hill for some is a mixed bag although I do like it. I've played Longaberger a few times and it's quite good -- I guess staging the PGA Club Pro Championship doesn't count for anything. I also really liked what Hurdzan / Fry did with Eaglesticks in Zanesville plus what Jack Kidwell did with Indian Springs in Mechanicsburg -- just outside of Columbus. I also enjoyed my time at Blue Ash just outside Cinncy.

I have a huge amount of respect for Ohio but NY and Pennsy are still my choice.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

C'mon partner - you're losing some serious credibility on the better private clubs -- Buckeye v Keystone States. Please match it up anyway you like -- from a top five, top ten, top 25 and I'll be more than willing to show the edge belongs to the home of Ben Franklin.

Glenn -- put Oakmont and Merion together and they BLOW AWAY any top two you have from Ohio. Please don't even think in telling me The Golf Club (which I like a lot) and Muirfield Village can sniff what the two I just mentioned are about or any other combo for that matter. More than eager to continue with a top five or top ten situation. You also seem to forget the so-called "lesser" known Pennsy courses such as Scranton, Sunnehanna, and Laurel Valley (quite good for Dick Wilson and blows away what you find at Coldstream as a quick parallel.), to name just a few.

I'll say this again in the event you must have skipped something I wrote -- just the greater Philadelphia area listing of top tier private clubs can beat out most all of the states in the USA. I mean there is no less than 6-8 top tier courses one can mention simply from that area -- and my numbers are on the conservative side.

Glenn, the point you keep on missing is that the edge goes to NY and Pennsy simply because the private side is a good bit ahead of Ohio while the public side is roughly a wash. You keep on harping about BB but the simple fact is that after that the bar does drop considerably -- Pennsy is just about a wasteland until the likes of Lederach came forward this year and the report on Morgan Hill for some is a mixed bag although I do like it. I've played Longaberger a few times and it's quite good -- I guess staging the PGA Club Pro Championship doesn't count for anything. I also really liked what Hurdzan / Fry did with Eaglesticks in Zanesville plus what Jack Kidwell did with Indian Springs in Mechanicsburg -- just outside of Columbus. I also enjoyed my time at Blue Ash just outside Cinncy.

I have a huge amount of respect for Ohio but NY and Pennsy are still my choice.

Matt,

You MUST understand that I am in no way comparing Ohio's two best to Merion and Oakmont. I would rather play Merion than Augusta after what I saw and felt on my visit there. Now, with that said, Pennsylvania and Philly obviously have some wonderful golf courses. This FACT is not in question. I think it is well known that Ohio, California, Pennsylvania and New York are probably the best four states in the country for privates. My disagreement comes from your idea that Ohio has these interesting publics. You mentioned Longaberger and its Club Pro Championship, well, Ohio has had well more clubs host majors than Pennsylvania has in the last 50 years. I don't think that it is just a given that Pennsylvania is better than Ohio. I know these are not the end all of end alls, but rankings and majors hosted say that I am correct on that point. You may be right and you may not, but I cannot agree that Ohio doesn't belong in the discussion. I have not played Scranton, but I will put Moraine up against it anytime. Eaglesticks, Indian Springs (which I like) and Blue Ash? I find it AMAZINGLY hard to believe that Pennsylvania doesn't have any publics in that class. Hell, I would rather play Oyster Bay on Long Island than any of those. I found Blue Ash to be outrageously overrated.
 
For the fun of it, count how many Ohios I listed and match them with Philly and lets see if I am wrong. If I am I promise I will admit it.

[Matt_Ward]

Glenn:

You're like the guys at Notre Dame who are in deep denial that they belong at the BCS level. It's the same thing you are doing in elevating Ohio to an even or greater status than the Keystone State on the private side of the ledger. The Philly area alone is rock solid with so many gems -- a number of which are rarely brought forward on this site. I mentioned a few others off the top of my head right away.

The issue you can't grasp is that Pennsy private golf is beyond Ohio golf and the nature of Pennsy / Ohio golf is roughly about the same -- hence the edge to Pennsy. Got it.
I never said Ohio doesn't belong in the discussion -- just not at the height of Pennsy and NY.

When you ask me about Pennsy public golf -- do you not believe I have some idea on what I am talking about? Do you think I have not done the legwork to make such a statement?

One other thing -- you say you have not played Scranton but you are quick to point out how Moraine can be put up against it anytime. Geeze Glenn -- how bout you play both before leaping off the credibility bridge?

P.S. One other thing -- NY is the BEST PRIVATE STATE IN THE COUNTRY. Everyone else follows behind.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt & Glenn

A quick look at GW's list of Top 100 Classic reveals that PA has 11 courses - 6Oakmont,7Merion,52Aronimink,69HVCC,71Lancaster,74Fox Chapel,76PhillyCC,77Lehigh,93Manufacturers,97Sunnehanna&100 Rolling Green

while OH has 8 courses-
26Camargo,37Inverness,53Scioto,64NCR South,65Brookside,88Moraine,96Canterbury&99Firestone

OH has 3 courses in Top 100 Modern-

6 Muirfield Village, 7 TGC & 30Double Eagle

while PA has 0 in Top 100 Modern

Given the strength of PA with Oakmont rated at 9.04 & Merion at 8.94 while MV is the highest rated OH course at 8.19 and TGC comes in at 8.17, I'd side with Matt on this one*



Disclaimer. I'm a native Keysone Stater and PSU alum

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Appreciate the input but the usage of Golfweek doesn't somehow bless my argument -- heck -- there's plenty within the Golfweek ratings that I see much differently and this thread has shed light on a host of such courses.

Glenn:

Correction to a previous paragraph I just wrote on my last post.

The issue you can't grasp is that Pennsy private golf is beyond Ohio private golf and the nature of Pennsy / Ohio public golf is roughly about the same -- hence the edge to Pennsy. Got it.

I never said Ohio doesn't belong in the discussion -- just not at the height of Pennsy and NY.

[Glenn Spencer]

Matt,

Phil, c'mon when you say you "generally" agree in regards to the state of public golf in NY and Pennsy. What is their not to agree with what I said. You take any two other states in the Union and I'll take NY and Pennsy as the two best examples in which the gap between the best private and public are separated by that far apart. No two other states come close

I guess this is where I got confused. Remember, I never said that you were wrong, just that Ohio had almost or every bit as much to bemoan.

[Glenn Spencer]

Steve,

Rankings don't say it all and I said that earlier, but Ohio has more top 100 US and World in other rankings than Penn has.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt & Glenn

Nevertheless, with 2 top 10 courses in PA as strong as Merion and Oakmont are,I'd still give the edge to PA. The other courses in both states are all very good, regardless of how GW places them.

Moreover, PA has 2 courses in GW Top 100 Resort-

45 Mystic Rock & 60 Hershey

while OH has 0.

Steve

[Glenn Spencer]

Steve,

I don't know anything about Mystic Rock, isn't that the name of the course at Nemacolin? Whether it is or it isn't, that course is in Penn and it beats any Ohio public. Now, the kicker in Penn comes with HERSHEY, nobody in their right mind would rather play any Ohio public than Hershey CC!!! So, New York has the best privates, got it, knew that. Penn is slightly better than Ohio in privates, maybe so, but both states have FABULOUS public courses New York has Bethpage and Penn has Hershey. Ohio has a big fat bagel. This is why I said Ohio could complain jsut as much.