Manufacturer's project

[TEPaul]

I stopped over yesterday to look at Manufacturers and got a tour from our buddy, Manufacturer's "firm and fast" super Scott May.

I hadn't been over there in over a year. The course is in the process of a Forse Design restoration project. A lot of good stuff is going on over there.

I know that course really well and I was just stunned by some of the specific tree removal. I couldn't believe what I was seeing when we got into that #8, #7 green, #9 tee, #13 green and #14 tee. As well as I know that course I had no idea all those things are as close as they are. In my entire recollection all those things were so covered with trees I didn't even know where those other greens, tees and holes were whenever I was on any one of them

Talk about totally uncovering some remarkable natural features. That quarry cutting past the 9th tee and on into and encompassing the 8th green is just unbelievable. How in the world a golf club could have something that neat and dramatic looking and completely cover it up all these years is now beyond me.

I promise you it's really hard to describe the dramatic difference.

And you should see the tree removal around #4 green.

Then there're some really wonderful green expansions, fairway chipping area around many of the greens etc.

What they've done around #14 green by removing the trees and by extending the green in the front left combined with the expanded approach area just might make the ground game approach on this hole one of the most interesting I've ever seen with the topography. It's one a great diagonal that's feeds left to right bigtime. And you should see the green-end of #6 nearby. It sort of plays like a high redan.

It's very impressive over there now compared to the way it used to be. Anyone really interested in this stuff who knows the course should check it out. I guarantee you'll be impressed

To me the interior tree situation at Manny's and Rolling Green were pretty similar.

Rolling Green and the guys from there----you have got to get over to Manufacturers if you want to see how to begin to get into interior tree removal to really turn the lights up on the interior topography of your course.

Not to mention HVGC. They are seriously considering some of this kind of selective tree removal too.

Honestly, this kind of thing on those courses makes a dramatic difference which is hard to imagine.

Congratulations, Manny's, Scott, Ron Forse and Jim Nagel, Steve Shaeffer, green chairman, and the club. You're going to love your restoration.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I want to get over there again sometime soon.  Ron Forse called me today and told me he is very pleased with the ongoing work and had high praise for the revised lower green on the 18th hole.  The former Gordon green was remodeled in a more Flynn style.  The tree work is something that the folks at RGGC should check out.  Nice to know that the tree clearing trend is coming to HVCC and they'll be more systematic than that tornado of some years back.  Great to hear you like the results so far.  Congrats to Scott and his crew and the MGCC membership.

[TEPaul]

The stunningly dramatic difference at Manufacturers with its selective tree removal has made me go back and look at whatever tree removal we've done at my course. It pales in comparison.

I checked out a really good aerial I have from 1939 of GMGC and I swear to God the multitude of little pines planted in rows here and there in the 1930s is enough to make one sick.

On the 1939 aerial it makes the course look like it just underwent a really cheap hair-transplant. Those disgusting little pine trees makes the place look like it just had a bunch of little hair folicles embedded in rows in parts of its scalp.

If I'd been around in 1939 I think I might have been an arboreal infanticidist!!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom and Wayne-

  You both would know much more about Manufacturers CC than I, and I can't seem to reach Kyle Harris now.  

  I know the 18th hole features the upper green (Flynn) and lower green (Gordon).  

  When was this change made, and for what reason?

  Considering today's technology, would the upper green be able to serve as a functional 18th green in certain circumstances (higher-level tournaments)?

  I realize the last question is not for us to decide, it is for that of the membership, as it's their club.  

[TEPaul]

Bringing this back up because Manny's super Scott May never saw it.

[Adam_Messix]

I haven't been by Manny's in about a year, but from the pictures that I saw on other thread, the work there looks impressive.  

How much more of the course is now visible from the first tee with the tree removal.  I am assuming that most of the large trees between the clubhouse and 9 green remain.  

I've alway liked Manny's, particularly the short holes.

[SMay]

I wanted to get you guys a few pictures of some of master plan renovations ongoing at MGCC and after some help from Wayne I was able to post them for you.  

The first two are of the 13th green - before and after tree removals.  It is hard to believe thery are the same hole.

The third picture is of the newly rebuilt lower 18th green with substantial tree work to left and behind the green.  I believe Kyle Harris has a picture posted before the work took place.  There is set to be more tree work behind the lower green and left of the upper green to open more of a view from the clubhouse.

The last four pictures are of some recently completed tree work around and inside the quarry.  I do not have any before pictures of the quarry because as recently as three years ago it was used as the clubs' dump.  We still have some cleanup to do but the quarry will become an outstanding land feature once all is cleaned up.  

Scott May

[Mike_Cirba]

Scott,

That's just outstanding!  If I can think of a poster child for a wonderful course that had been kept hidden by trees, Manufacturers would be it.

Please keep us updated here as you're able.  

[wsmorrison]

Scott,

I know it took a looooong time to get these photos on the website, but WOW, it is worth the wait and the many hours it took you to get it together.  

Anything I know about this sort of stuff is due to the knowledge and patience of Craig Disher.  He must have thought I was a dope, but he hung in there with me.  Glad to help you learn how to post, it feels good to see the photos on the site.  

The first time I saw this great golf course was with Mike Cirba.  Mike, we'll have to get back there in the Spring and see the restoration effort in all its glory.  I'm glad the greatness of this course is literally being uncovered as the trees come down and the restoration plan is put into effect.

Keep us posted with the ongoing efforts.  It looks terrific.  I'll try to get out there next week and see it in person.  

Have a great weekend.
Wayne

[TEPaul]

If you are like I am, when I see something with a course that is really dramatic it generally takes a while for it to sink in.

Seeing NGLA again after all the trees on the interior of the course was one of those things. It took a while for it to sink in (frankly, I still miss that tree behind #15).

It was the same seeing Manufacturers the other day. It took a while to sink it.

What took me a while to realize is just how completely Manufacturers, and probably many other courses, were able over time to completely coverup some of its site's very best natural features. They did some job of that over the years. I knew that quarry on #8 was there obviously because you could see it off the tee but I had no idea it went all the way around to the left of the 9th tee. The same with the quarry to the left of #11 and #17. I didn't even know that was there.

But now that they've opened up to view a lot of all that it doesn't just look dramatically better it also gives people like us who study architecture a much better idea about just how William Flynn worked in both a routing and design sense with his architecture.

Manufacturers now is like a really cool classroom that way. Until they removed all those trees it was like an architectural classroom with all the shades on the windows pulled down, the doors shut and the classroom cast into total darkness.

Again, this is a project that Flynn's crosstown club Rolling Green should go study very carefully with an eye to opening back up to view the really interesting natural features on the interior of their golf course. There are some topographical natural features particularly in the middle of both those courses that should never again be remotely hidden from view---because they are stunning to look at.

Matter of fact, the same to perhaps a lesser degree could be said about HVGC. Seems to me over there they are beginning to seriously eye some great visual possibilities too with tree removal.

This kind of thing also makes a little more clear something about Flynn that we suspected but were not able to tell that well until now and that is that he seemed to be the guy around here who may've actually welcomed taking on some extremely complex topographical sites and figuring out better than anyone could how to really make them work for golf.

[TEPaul]

I haven't seen the project plan recently and it may be too complicted to pull off for various reasons but it seems to me the next hole that may blow us away in its dramatic change in this project may be #2. It's always had flooding and drainage problems but if they could figure out a way to get all the trees out along the creek on the left and really bring that back into view and into play (if it ever was) that hole could be really remarkable looking.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

We absolutely need to get back over there in the spring.   Perhaps that expatriate Harris will be back in town by then.

Little does he know he's missing a great golf season right here in Philly, thanks to the effects of Global Warming.  

[JNagle]

Scott -

The quarry looks great.  It is strange considering all of the trees that have been removed that area (out of play) seems to have the greatest impact.  At least, as Tom Paul points out above, until all of the crummy willows left of #2 come out.  Great job!

Also, my congrats to all the Eagles fans on your staff.  If the Steelers aren't in it, guess I have to cheer for the eastern part of the State (as much as it hurts!).

[Andy Scanlon]

Scott:

Great pics.  The transformation of #13 is amazing.  Manny's was already a great course, but these renovations will make it truly outstanding!

Mayday:  

We should take TEPaul's advice and get a group from RG over there to see the changes that are being made.

[mike_malone]

 The Manny's tree removal is more dramatic than the removal at RG.But I bet we have taken down more in the last five years. We are on a good program now.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I haven't seen the project plan recently and it may be too complicted to pull off for various reasons but it seems to me the next hole that may blow us away in its dramatic change in this project may be #2. It's always had flooding and drainage problems but if they could figure out a way to get all the trees out along the creek on the left and really bring that back into view and into play (if it ever was) that hole could be really remarkable looking.

  On the topic of hole #2, if the trees on the left side of the hole in its entirety, bordering Sandy Run, were removed, would it be possible to see the green from the tee?  

[mike_malone]

 I think I read that the creek ran along the left side  and the back of the #2 green. Is that correct? I think there are too many greens just across the creek on that course.

[wsmorrison]

"I think I read that the creek ran along the left side  and the back of the #2 green. Is that correct? I think there are too many greens just across the creek on that course."


Flynn proposed moving the stream along the left side of the green but it was not done.  1938 and 1942 aerial photographs show no bunkers around the green.

OK genius, if you think three greens just beyond the stream are too many (2,5 and 10), how would you have routed the golf course?  When you make statements like that, you either have a better routing plan or are making premature or ill-informed judgements.  Which is it?  Honestly, the routing of a golf course is not so simple.  There are natural features on that course in particular that demand to be used.  The routing progression might just be subordinate to that and not the location of streams to three greens.

There are numerous instances where you point out the importance of variety.  Should Flynn have routed Rolling Green differently so as not to have so many uphill approaches?  Of course not.  Get with the program, Mikey.

I guess you could include the 17th as a fourth green across a creek, though this one is 40 yards from the creek rather than just across.

[mike_malone]

 I like Flynn's idea. I think it would have created a more interesting hole to have the creek all along the left side (without the trees, of course). I wouldn't pretend to offer them new routing ideas.

[wsmorrison]

I have to think about Flynn's proposal for the second hole some more.  I don't think it was his final design iteration--he also had a bunker on the right front corner of the green in that plan.  

With a creek along the left, it would take the creek along the left side of the fairway out of play on the tee shot with most everyone recognizing the need to favor the right side of the fairway.  With the setup as built, the creek in front and if the willows are removed, the temptation to hug the left side would be back in play and would be better than the creek moved along the left side.  If they can get the drainage managed on that portion of the hole, it will be a great improvement among many.

What do you think?

[mike_malone]

 I imagine Flynn wanted to encourage a shot close to the creek for the best advantage. So, I would imagine that right bunker would be an issue for a shot from the right side. Without the trees along the creek the possibility of hitting left of the creek would have led to a requirement to come back over the creek to get to the green. So, the recovery shot would be tested rather than the approach shot.

[wsmorrison]

Huh?  You think the left side of the stream was meant to be in play for the hole and was part of Flynn's design intent?  Or do you think it was meant to be punished if you overplayed the left side?  Mike, do not operate heavy machinery, your mind must be impared.  Or are you still drunk from the Eagles' victory?

There were large trees off the tee that would have prevented that kind of result on a tee shot and rough on the other side of the stream that would make a shot to that side, even if it was if feasible, totally unreliable.  Without question, the stream moved along the left side of the green would have forced shots away from the stream.  That is why he had a bunker on the right in the plans.  When the stream wasn't moved, the bunker was no longer necessary.

Mike, you are scaring me again    Where is Dr. Katz when you need him?

[Kyle Harris]

I imagine Flynn wanted to encourage a shot close to the creek for the best advantage. So, I would imagine that right bunker would be an issue for a shot from the right side. Without the trees along the creek the possibility of hitting left of the creek would have led to a requirement to come back over the creek to get to the green. So, the recovery shot would be tested rather than the approach shot.

Mike, you'd be on the 7th fairway.

As it is, and Scott and I have discussed this, there is a drainage swale to the left of the 2nd green that also runs in front of the 6th tee. If one looks immediately off property, the creek makes a VERY abrupt right right angle turn right at the property line before it flows in front of the 6th tee. Is it possible that Flynn's original plan was based on a topographic map of the area that did not show the diversion of the creek's path?

If the abrupt off property turn were not there, the creek would be a straight shot from its location to the left side of the second tee all the way to where the angle is now, taking it to the left of the 2nd green.

In the google aerial, one can see the abrupt turn, the drainage swale and the "straight shot" of which I am speaking.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=40.124512,-75.181117&spn=0.002375,0.004302&t=k&om=1

Wayne/Scott,

Are there any pictures of the 7th green after bunker removal? How about 10? My pictures were during construction of that.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I have to think about Flynn's proposal for the second hole some more.  I don't think it was his final design iteration--he also had a bunker on the right front corner of the green in that plan.  

With a creek along the left, it would take the creek along the left side of the fairway out of play on the tee shot with most everyone recognizing the need to favor the right side of the fairway.  With the setup as built, the creek in front and if the willows are removed, the temptation to hug the left side would be back in play and would be better than the creek moved along the left side.  If they can get the drainage managed on that portion of the hole, it will be a great improvement among many.

What do you think?

Wayne, and everyone else-

  I played the hole once, in August 2006, so I don't have a wealth of experience with it.  
From the aerial, the long axis of the green appears to point straight into the left rough, near the corner.  

  Has the green been modified since being built?  

  If the willows that currently line the Sandy Run and border the left side of the hole were cut down, would the player be able to see the flag from the tee, and perhaps be tempted with flirting with the left side?  

  The concept, this particular play, hugging the inside, does go against the strategy of "outside the dogleg" that I have seen on other Flynn holes, which is interesting in itself.  

  But, in taking the willows down, how much would this impact the stability of the soil; taken another way, does Sandy Run flood very often, how much, and is there a great risk for parts of the fairway to wash away if it did flood?  I imagine this would be a consideration as well.  

  Short of building a rock wall, are there other ways of stabilizing the Run banks so as to prevent or minimize erosion?

[wsmorrison]

The long axis doesn't always dictate direction.  What about the long axis on the 11th at Huntingdon Valley or the 12th at Augusta National?  There are many examples of this.  As I said in a previous post, there are and always were large trees off the tee that would prevent all but a serious late hook from crossing the stream and would certainly obscure a view of the green.

While Flynn liked to have sharp golfers recognize the need to play along the outside of many of his dogleg holes, it was by no means universal.  If it were, it wouldn't have the desired effect of challenging the strategic decision making skills of a golfer.