Not Enough Challenge For Skilled Golfer

[Andy_Lipschultz]

In all the time I've played RC, I've only seen good things happen on #12 when the tee shot is played out to the right and close to pin high (so you're just off the green, up to 60 yards away). Most with driver, try to hit a draw around the pepper tree, but with the overspin, they're rarely over the back and more often in the traps, or the knarly (sp?) rough (short and left).  Come to think of it, I've never seen a tee shot end up on the green.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom H,
I was the one that favours laying back 80 yards, my reasoning is simple.  This is 80 yards for the skilled golfer, (remember, you said: "vast majority of golfers at where they'd have better success from 80 than from 5". I am referring to a smaller sample, the small minority who could get within 5 yards of a 340-yard hole. Having made that clear, 80 yards is an arbitrary distance, but on that the golfer can spin a wedge and have a chance at stopping the ball on the green.

You said, "if long is a worry at 340 yards, then something is wrong with the game". Now, I will concede that from 15 feet most golfers have a good chance at getting down with a putter. However, if all these greens are drivable (which I assume means the drive on the green), how is ten yards further over the back edge so unattainable?

I will concede that fact, but I cannot believe many have distance control to hit that green (or within a five yard circle) and not go long. Therefore, there is probably a greater chance that people are five to 15 yards short. With the large fringes many would consider this a practically "the green.

Tying back to my original argument, if that pin is back, the drive left 10 yards short of the green, plays closer to 25-35? yards? Many better players contend that the 30 to 40-yard wedge shot is the hardest in the game. I will take their word for it, especially when the pin is back. Now you have a chip or a putt that requires unbelievable control to go after the back pin. As Mike Cirba said, lots frighten of that from the fairway, so deft touch would be required. Without the ability to spin a 35-yard shot, I feel the 80-yard shot is easier.

[THuckaby2]

Gentlemen:

This has been fun but I need to get some work done and thus can't devote the effort to a decent reply.  Basically, my take is that the green is so severe that the advantage gained in being able to spin the ball from 80 yards is negligible, because NO ONE can spin the ball on those type of contours with that type of firmness as exhibited there at Rustic.  Bottom line, no more, no less.

TH

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
I could get my LW to stop after its first bounce and the course was firm.

I am not superman, but at least don't discredit the option as plausible. It negates my entire post above, which I would not have typed, if I believed the wedge shot unstoppable.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I landed on the green, about halfway on, and the ball started climbing the knobby thing in the back, before rolling back to mid-green.

It's most definitely doable by mere mortals, and I used my 56 degree wedge.  

[THuckaby2]

Interesting.  At least we've discovered our disconnect.  My take was that no ball would ever stop on that green.  My bad if I got that wrong.

Just shows the respect and admiration I have for you guys also as I am currently blowing off a work meeting to make sure and see what you said...  

TH

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

No getting a 5-iron to stop on number two, that is impossible.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Be assured that the same respect goes both ways.  

I was just given about double my present work responsibilities due to a departing employee, and yet I come back to hear what you have to say on the matter, as well.

Of course, I might not be back on GCA for six months, but that's not due to you!  

It's due to Wigler.  

[Ken_Cotner]

Could it be that what is considered a good shot from 80 yards (middle of the green, in this case) is considered a bad shot from just off this green (ala Huck)?  I know I usually feel this way, even if I logically know the shorter pitch/chip/putt/whatever is just as difficult.

KC, with full disclosure that not only have I not played the hole, I haven't looked at any photos...aerial or otherwise  

[THuckaby2]

Ha!  Great stuff, boys.    And it was a 2iron I hit into #2 that stopped within three feet, Ben.  I've come to realize since then that that shot was a freak - it was very early and I must have hit a particularly dewey patch.

By the time we got to 12, all was fine in the firm and fast department!

By the way, my favorite hole on the course, in retrospect having not played it in a long time now, is now #11.  I absolutely love the fact I argued for days with Dave M. and others about the better angle in, and I still remain unsure.  Is it weird that this uncertainty makes me LIKE the golf hole more?

One more btw - I just found the scorecard from my family group, and it turns out we went 4-5-6-7, with the 5 being made by my Dad, who definitely came in from the farthest away.  Maybe you guys were right all along...  

TH

TH

[David Kelly]

Ask DavidKelly, who drove up alongside and took a 7.

I have in the course of playing #12 at Rustic Canyon many times achieved the following:
eagled the hole
birdied the hole more than a few times,
went driver, putter,putter,putter,putter,putter,putter for a 7, hit the pin in the air on my drive,
driven it out of bounds,
driven it through the hole into some weeds,
putted from more than 75 yards away,
bogeyed the hole many times
and have used everything from a 5 iron to driver off the tee.  

Today playing with Lynn and David M I bogeyed the hole with a one putt.  It is one of my favorite holes on the course and a hole that I have said many times shouldn't even be handicapped because it can be played even in a match by scratch and 18 handicappers.

As for skilled golfers not finding interest at Rustic Canyon I know that Fred Couples, Steve Pate, David Berganio, John Pate and Denis Watson among other VERY SKILLED golfers all had very good things to say about the course and all have said that they had fun.  Or maybe they aren't quite skilled enough?

[Tim_Weiman]

David Kelly:

Reading your experience on #12 I'm tempted to make a wise crack remark about how it proves the course is not interesting off the tee.

But on a more more serious note, I'm wondering if Rustic Canyon is not the sort of course you can play once or twice and truly understand.

Does the course - the mystery of the course - unfold gradually over several, if not many, rounds?

Are those who play it on a regular basis more likely to sing its praises?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tim,
I compared the course to the Old Course, in that respect. Not to say they are of equal calibre, but simply that the secrets are so clearly revealed as you look at the course more. It is certainly one of only many courses I have seen this year that I think about the holes and look at the photos often to figure out what I will do there next.

I never thought I would envy those golfers in Southern California.

[David Kelly]

One of the reasons so many of us are passionate about Rustic Canyon is that it is extraordinarily unique.  Nothing else in Southern California plays like it and nothing that I have seen  looks like it.  The design makes for a great public course but it would also have made a great private course as members could play it over and over again without getting bored.

My brother who is not an avid golfer once drove up to it to take a look and later said to me, "THAT'S the course you're always talking about? Whats the big deal?"  I have also heard of people driving up taking a look and deciding not to play it.

Not comparing the quality of the two courses but like TOC, Rustic Canyon becomes more interesting the more you play it and like TOC some people may not find it to their liking or see what others see in it.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Thank you for biting the bullet.  I had meetings all afternoon and called Tom first to tell hi I was done with this thread.

Mike,

12 might be 340 down the middle of the fairway but it is less than 300 as the crow flies.  Furthermore, given the forward kick and the pitch onto the green, and tee shot of say 265 or more should end up on the surface (That is how Huckaby got there).  I hit driver to 20 feet and two putted for birdie.  I play a fade.  I could not care less if the ball sliced as it is all fairway right of the green (Same as two) my worst-case scenario was going to be pin high 20 feet right.  I'll bet you dinner that you can place the pin anywhere you want, give me a 20-yard pitch or a putt from the front of the green and go back to 80 yards and I will beat or tie you on four out of five balls.  On 3, I lipped out a 12-foot eagle putt with a 3-wood tee shot.  Again, I had five eagle putts in the round.  I can only think of two holes where I had any other thought than "Blast away."  The course simply lacks interest off the tee.  TIM GO SEE THE FRICKING COURSE!!  Tom did a great job defending our feelings and he is dead right.  I'll try another analogy.  Dolly Parton has a top ten set of cans but I wouldn't do her with the lights on.  The face tosses her from the top 100.  RC might just be the Dolly Parton of Golf Courses.

Mike - I promise this is my last comment on Cascata until you see the course.  We are arguing on three threads and I cannot keep up.  #3 at Cascata is a 570-yard hole that drops about 100' from tee to green (Something that is impossible to see from your aerial).  I was playing with two bombers only slightly shorter than me.  The middle to right side of the fairway is stepped and plateau'd (Again invisible on your aerial).  They both hit right and with the elevation had between 215 and 240 to the green.  Rees built a terrific line of charm down the left side if you were willing to risk the desert.  I hit it perfectly and the ball kicked forward to the 170 plate.  The drive went 396 yards and I played the hole Driver, 9-Iron.  It is a brilliant design that is invisible from an aerial.  If you want to learn about the course, you will take this at face value.  If you want to continue to battle on a course you have not seen, then I give up, you win, JakaB is right, and everything not designed by Doak, Gil, or any other architect who posts on GCA is shit and should be blown up and redone by Doak, Gil or another GCA type.  Furthermore, I am done arguing on RC.  I like the people involved in designing it too much.  Tom – you are on your own.  RC is exactly like Pinehurst #2 and Pine Valley and it is simply because of the lack of knowledge of Morons like me that GD and GW did not put it in the top 100.

[Tim_Weiman]

David Wigler:

You may have noticed that Tom Huckaby made the following comment during our discussion about Rustic Canyon:

"challenge off the tee for the highly skilled player is not a requirement for greatness for a golf course.  Pine Valley proves this."

Is Tom right about this?

[DMoriarty]

 I thought of you all this morning when I walked up to the 14th tee at RC.  Jeff Hicks or someone had the nerve to place the tee markers a yard or two behind the black plate.  Seems silly now, but it felt very important at the time.  
  Thinking of all of you must have relaxed me a bit because I hit a very good drive, for me. I cleared the hazard, ended up somewhat on the flat side of the fairway, and only had 250 to middle of the green.  For those that havent played it, here is Ran's picture from the blue tee, which is 30-40 yards closer to the green.

A very interesting discussion, although I get the feeling that some are holding back.  I hope everyone is courteous enough not to pull punches-- speak openly and lay it on the line, call a fig a fig, as it were.  Those involved are in the wrong business if they cant take it, and those loyal to RC should keep their own mouths shut if they arent willing to listen to what others have to say.  

 As to me being a homer and a loyalist, that is certainly a fair assessment, and I am glad of it.  After years of driving endlessly all over SC in search of a great course, it feels good to be a homer and a loyalist.  I drive 45 miles through LA to be a loyalist every chance I get.  I used to play at more expensive courses that I wouldnt play now if they were 1/2 Rustic's price.  I could possibly even scrape together enough to join a club, if any would take me, but I can't fathom why I would do that now.  I now am friends with some of the usual Rustic suspects but that came later.  I have no equity stake, have payed no nonrefundable sum, no monthly dues, nothing keeping me there but quality.  I am a homer and a loyalist by choice, and that choice is based on perceived merit alone, and is revokable at any time.

A general question, not just about RC:  What is the point of "interesting greens" or "great green complexes" if the course does not offer the width to completely explore the greens?  As for RC, without all the width, what would be interesting about the greens?  Is it all just about putting up and over humps?  

JakaB:  Sometimes it is a good idea to look at your cards before you push your all your chips into the pot.  Then again . . . Blind Call.  You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  You will change your tune once you do.  I am sure of it.  Come out and play.

[DMoriarty]

What happens on those 3 shortish par 4's at Rustic if you fire away with the driver right at the green, and you bomb the hell out of it 320 or so, but you miss 15 yards left or right of each green?  Whaddya got for a second shot (assume the pin is dead center because when bombers go for greens like that, they generally play to the fat side and I want to know about both misses)?

Hole 3. 320 yds.  Rt is safe miss (many think too safe), until bunker about 40yds right.  If you are barely left, 6 ft bunkers. A little more left is OB.  Front left bunker, Back left very nasty bunker.  

Hole 7.  330 yds.  Short, dead in hazard.  Left, dead in hazard.  Long, probably dead but not in hazard.  There is a shallow bunker around the edge of part of this hazard and then large collar/approach then green. Right long, hardpan lie over large mound on green edge.  Right of front, safe.  

Hole 12.   340 yds.  Safe right and back.  Front and left, bunker/waste area and very difficult angle.  OB right.  

[DMoriarty]

The discussion of twelve is great.  Reading some of the comments, I think I may have been playing the wrong hole all this time. I will try to get some pictures in the next week or two so we all can play along.  Until then, something to think about.

  I've been pulling punches a bit.  We are all a little hesitant when talking about $35 public course draw certain comparisons, but the more I play RC12, the more I realize that it is absolutely brilliant.  The best and most original new concept for a hole that I have ever seen.  Future generations will write about RC12 in books on golf course architecture.    

Pine Valley?  Never been there, but if Pine Valley has short par fours that are signicantly more interesting, challenging, and fun than RC12 then it must be one hell of a course.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave Wigler;

Thanks for the reply re: Cascata.  I hope to get out there and play it, perhaps this coming winter.  

One question regarding the hole you described.  Do you think the carry to reach the "power slot" that propelled your ball to within  9-iron distance on a 570 yard par five is something that is within the capability of the average golfer, or is that an option only available to the longest hitters?  I'm just curious because I know you hit the ball a very long way....and pretty accurate too I'd imagine if you had 5 eagle putts at RC!  That's quite the feat!

In any case, I appreciate you providing more info, I hope you aren't offended by my questions, I hope we can get together to play sometime, and I also thought your Dolly Parton comment was very clever, VERY humorous, if ultiimately inaccurate.  

I think of Rustic Canyon more like Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman";  a little scruffy, fun for ALL, perhaps a bit too easy, but with a beauty and complexity shimmering underneath it all for those who look carefully.  She'll wear well with age.  

[David Wigler]

Mike,

My bad on the taking insult.  Let's hook up and play this summer.  As to your question on Cascata, I believe the runnway goes up the entire left side and anyone who can hit it 250 (With 50' of elevation drop can take advantage of it (To differing levels).  Picture 18 at Kapalua.  Also, a shorter hitter would be playing tees further up.  Perhaps Lou could speak to this point better.

Tim,

I believe Tom either would have said or meant "Interest off the tee," not challenge.  If that is Tom's opinion, then this is a rare disagreement that we have.  I believe that interest off the tee is an esential quality of a great golf course.  I also believe that Pine Valley and Pinhurst #2 have great interest off the tee.

[Mike Benham]

I think of Rustic Canyon more like Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman";  a little scruffy, fun for ALL, perhaps a bit too easy, but with a beauty and complexity shimmering underneath it all for those who look carefully.  She'll wear well with age.

Mike, Mike, Mike ...

Julia Roberts?  In comparison to the famed Dolly Parton quote, she ain't got no cans and it wouldn't help if the lights were off ...

RC has width off the tee, varying angles of approach and bodacious curves on the greens ... as a goddess for comparison to Rustic Canyon, there is only one possible choice (and the name fits) Christy Canyon ... and yes, they are real

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Benham;

As creative and imaginative as Rustic Canyon is, I've seen Christy Canyon do some daring and amazing things that are of far greater strategic and functional interest to me than just preferred approach angles and interesting recovery shots.  

I also doubt that she wouldn't be found challenging or interesting to the skilled player.    

Your analogy borders on overkill!  

[Dan Grossman]

I only have one more question and then I am done with
this thread.

David Wigler - Did you play the back tees at Rustic?

I only ask because I only remember #12 being drivable.  Maybe I just didn't eat my Wheaties that day.   :-/

[Tim_Weiman]

David Moriarty:

It's a pleasure to read how much you enjoy Rustic Canyon. Truthfully, I never felt LA was a particularly good place for golf when I lived there in the late 80s/early 90s - other then the weather, of course. Funny thing, I think the round of golf I most enjoyed was at Rec Park in Long Beach on one of those rare days where it actually rained and I was able to go out and play in not much more than two hours.

Dan King probably has it right. Those that aren’t impressed can go elsewhere, but it sounds like a great addition to golf in LA. One of these days Tommy will finally get me to come have a look.

David Wigler:

I’m glad Dave Schmidt likes the Dolly Parton analogy, but it doesn’t do much for me. I’d still like to know why you place so much emphasis on challenging skilled players off the tee. Should we be encouraging architects and their clients to emphasize this SO MUCH that even if someone builds a course that is Top Ten of all modern courses sixty yards and in, it would not be considered for Top 100 simply due to lack of challenge for skilled players off the tee?

Then too, I noticed you disagree with the assessment that for skilled players Pine Valley is really all about precision of approach shots and play around greens. How many tee shots really challenge the skilled player? In sum, what is the difference between Pine Valley and Rustic Canyon off the tee? Aren’t they both so wide that the skilled player doesn’t have any worries about hitting fairways? Don’t both courses – however different their appearance might be – really boil down to play around the greens?