News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom Roewer

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2006, 08:16:19 AM »
Brad:  Brookside in Canton is a wonderful course isn't ti?  I haven't seen it since restoration.

The Dunes @ Seville just outside Brooksville Fl. finishes with a neat blind 3rd shot, or second if you can, par 5, and then an uphill finisher, hard to reach in two, with a beautiful view from the green.

Matthew Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2006, 08:19:10 AM »
The Dunluce at Portrush finishes 5 5.  Another example of an architect using par 5s to use up the least interesting terrain.

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2006, 08:23:43 AM »
I think for the ladies Kilkeel ends 5/3/5/5/5

michael j fay

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2006, 08:41:20 AM »
Holston Hills, Knoxville, TN

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2006, 08:51:42 AM »
I'll say this about the two finishing holes at Rolling Green ... compared to the rest of the holes, they are less interesting (particularly compared to the par threes). Also, they are certainly holes you can/should score on.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

michael j fay

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2006, 08:56:37 AM »
18 at Dunluce is a four, at least itwas when I played it last year.

Royal Birkdale ends 5,5.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2006, 09:08:26 AM »
The ladies course at Medinah, Course #2, ends 5-5-5 for the dames.

Richard Phinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2006, 10:13:35 AM »
The Donluce used to be a 5, now a four.  In Ireland, I believe Connemara is the only links course to finish with two par 5s.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2006, 10:36:26 AM »
Brad,

I forget that about Pleasant Valley. Isn't the first hole also the no. 1 handicap? When the PGA was there they flipped the 9s and the first hole was a 3.

Jeff,

I like your idea. I'll bet I could sell at least 42 books.



Anthony


wsmorrison

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2006, 10:39:12 AM »
"Wayne,

  You should stop saying #18 at Rolling Green is a "horrible" par five. It may not suit your game , but for many golfers it is a great finishing hole. If you want to keep calling it that then at least tell us what you mean by "horrible".

  Many par 4 1/2 holes  get  people to scratch their heads. I think it is better to study that hole and discern what gives it its "threeshotedness" and preserve those principles as you change it to adapt to the modern game. Simply moving the fairway to the left may solve your whole problem.

  Within the overall routing of that particular course the 5-5 finish works extremely well. It follows a challenging stretch and often lulls the player into thinking "No problem now; I'm finishing with a few birdies", only to be punished for a wayward tee shot when one tries to be too aggressive.

  I think you would enjoy the hole more if you changed your attitude."

I choose not to stop calling the 18th at Rolling Green a horrible par 5 if you don't mind.  You might understand the dysfunction of the hole if you studied holes more carefully (in general and Flynn in particular--think of the great par 4 finishes on Flynn championship designs) and with a deeper knowledge base.

But just so you understand my feelings, though I've mentioned them to you many times, I do not think it is a horrible par 5 hole from the members tees for the average player.  I've never said that.  I said it is a horrible par 5 from the new back tees for low handicappers and tournaments.  Tell me why the US Am did not use the tees but instead played the hole as a par 4 from the member tees.  By the way, for complete disclosure, why didn't you mention that the tee happened to have been built within a few feet to the NORTH of a large tree--so the agronomic implications of the tee are plain stupid).  The sole inspiration for the construction of the new tee is added length.  This becomes an excellent example of architectural disconnect.

The 18th hole is played from an elevated tee to a landing area that slopes right to left against the turn of the dogleg right.  There are too many trees along the right side, especially after the turn beyond a bunker complex.  From the middle tees, the hole plays 484 yards and plays 300 of those yards downhill then 184 yards uphill to a large green that slopes severely back to front.  There is a large bunker short of the green with the rear edge of the bunker about 40 yards short of the middle of the green.

For an accomplished player, the hole plays very well as a par 4 from the middle tee.  A good drive (downhill) can be either faded into the hillside or hit straight over the left edge of the bunker complex which starts about 235 yards off the tee and ends about 270 yards off the tee and falls to the left opening up a shot to the green.  So a good drive by a low handicapper not named Tom Paul will get you past the bunkers leaving a long iron to a large elevated green.  It is a challenging finishing hole after the very easy 17th (where the difficult stretch is already broken up), a hole where a stroke can easily be made up by the low handicap player coming into the demanding finishing hole.  You would rather have 2 easy par 5s back to back to finish the round?

From the new rear tee, only a handful of players can get beyond the corner and have a shot to the green.  For nearly every player on any level, the only play is a driver and 2 medium irons, for better players it is an 8-iron, wedge.  There is nothing to consider on the tee with this singular strategy that is built into the hole.  What is the point of being aggressive from the new rear tee when there is nearly a zero proabability of reaching the green in two?  I'd hit 3 or 5-wood along the left off the tee to take the bunkers out of play and leave a better angle for a 7-iron and lob wedge.  Even if I push the ball to the right, I'm hitting 8-iron, 9-iron.  Talk about BORING!  This is the 3-shotedness you want?  If so, you should not get your wishes.  It is better as a par 4.5 that plays to a par of 4 and tempts players to go for it in 2 shots rather than a 4.5 that plays to a par 5 finish that will tempt nobody because of the architectural disconnect.

From the member tees, the average member cannot get past the bunkers and they can play their two iron shots to the green.  There is no way the average player can reach the green in 2 so it is also an easy type of par 5 for them and makes them feel good but doesn't test them.  Not that they would ever do it, but it would be better for them to play from the forward tees as a par 4, but I know that will not happen.  Mike, get with the program as this is the last time I will hold your hand through the  thought process.  Otherwise I will have to abandon you and your club to your delusions.

You would rather tempt players to try and play beyond their capabilities and identify better thinkers and executions of strategy.  There is no mental test as the hole is set up from the back tee and it is boring.  Honestly, I cannot figure out why this is not obvious to you.  So you want to move the fairway to the left and you think that will help?  Please refrain from trying to redesign the hole.  
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 10:49:10 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2006, 11:01:25 AM »
The Dunes at Seville - near Brooksville, Florida - also ends 5 - 5...


David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2006, 11:22:57 AM »
My home course Plum Hollow ends 5-5.  The front nine has 3 par fives and 3 par threes.  After #8, there is not another 5 until #17.  For gamblers (Although there is no gambling at Bushwood) a 5-5 ending is fantastic, as there are many opportunities (Especially on #18) for a press and a birdie to save a boat load of bets.  

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2006, 04:19:41 PM »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2006, 04:25:17 PM »
Doug,

Thanks for that. By the way, how do you did up old threads? I did a search for a couple of recent ones on Devereux Emmet and could not find what I wanted.

I was sad.

Anthony

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2006, 04:54:40 PM »
Doug,

Thanks for that. By the way, how do you did up old threads? I did a search for a couple of recent ones on Devereux Emmet and could not find what I wanted.

I was sad.

Anthony


Anthony,

Years of experience thumbing through the CGA.com archives... ;) You need to manipulate the search engine a bit to get more hits. IM me if you'd like me to try to track something down for you--it's clunky, but it really isn't hard.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2006, 05:03:07 PM »
Doug,

IM you? Do you think if I'm incapable of using the search engine I have enough sense to figure out how to IM?

I'm heading out of the office right now but I would appreciate your help with the search. Send contact info to Apioppi@earthlink.net and I'll get to you in the next day or two.

Anthony

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2006, 07:01:22 PM »
Tony,

Doesn't 50 book sales constitute a Best Seller in the world of publishing on golf architecture  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Jim Nugent

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2006, 11:14:56 PM »
Related question, sort of: do any regulation courses end 3, 3?  Finishing with a par 3 is rare enough, and I've never seen or heard of one that ends with two of them.  

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2006, 07:36:18 AM »
Related question, sort of: do any regulation courses end 3, 3?  Finishing with a par 3 is rare enough, and I've never seen or heard of one that ends with two of them.  
Jim- Tredegar Park had the 17th and 18th both par 3 holes, one was quite hard the other easy, it also had the following quirks: 4 par five holes on the trot; a tee built on a bridge; you walked across a railway line to get to the 1st tee. i used the word HAD because Tredegar Park Golf clubmoved home maybe 10 years ago, the course abutted the motorway and became too dangerous. You can still see the outline of the course on a google search. It was a pretty nice course too.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bill_Ryzewski

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2006, 09:59:05 AM »
Webster-Dudley Golf Club (formerly Nichols College Golf Course) in Dudley, Mass. finishes very close to what Tony describes and it's a course you would probably have to stumble on. It's a nine hole course designed by Devereux Emmet. Not exactly sure how much time he spent on site though.


ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2006, 10:13:14 AM »
Jeff,

51 books sold is considered a best seller so I just have 48 more to go.

Bill,

Dudley Hill, formerly Webster-Dudley, formerly Nichols College,  originally Webster-Dudley, does finish 5-5.  Emmet was on site according to a Webster Times article from 1926. Holes 1-2, 6-9 opened first with temporary greens. Alfred Tull was also on site.

Anthony

Bill_Ryzewski

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2006, 10:46:27 AM »
Anthony,

I apologize for casually refering to you as Tony.

While Nichols College GC in the 60's and 70's the holes that are now #8 and #9 played as #1 and #2 with the current #1 playing as #3. The course has produced some pretty good amatuers, usually long, wild drivers with pretty accurate iron games honed by the very small greens. The latest pair are the Sikierski (sic?) brothers who have been a force in state junior golf (they may have graduated recently to adult events).

The mature and well kept greens are interesting enough to warrant a visit to the course (I haven't visited since 1995). But, of course it suffers in comparison to Whitinsville or even Cohasse in Southbridge.

Regards,
Bill

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2006, 10:59:27 AM »
Bill,

You can call me Tony or Anthony. Whatever you choose.

The current routing of Dudley Hill is the original. It has been changed for a while, I believe after a clubhouse fire.

Cohasse was the first course I ever set foot on - my parents are members there - and I'm a big fan. I especially like the back-to-back par-3s (195, 120). I think Dudley Hill is very underrated. There are some wonderful greensites.

Anthony


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2006, 04:10:17 PM »
One of Nicklaus's first designs, Desert Highlands in Scottsdale ends in two 5s.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Chris Perry

Re:Courses that end 5, 5
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2006, 07:06:26 PM »
http://www.golfnorthlands.com/

I eagled both last time was there, so now I can't go back.  ;D