[Geoffrey Childs]

You know Geoffrey...

That first pic of the 2nd at Macdonald's NGLA look a heckuva lot like the drive on the 18th at Merion!!  

Could it be??  Perhaps???   Another Piece???  

Happy New Year!  

Mike

Happy New Year to you.

Nah- It looks more like the drive on #18 at Riviera to me. Could it be?

[Mike_Cirba]

hmm...18th at Riviera.

Good Point!

What would that backwoods Philadephia George Thomas have known about architecture, anyway?   Didn't he spend most of his time with roses and only get into the architecture thing because someone decided to build a golf course on his land, which was Whitemarsh Valley?  

And what about that picture of Thomas at Riviera with Mackenzie?

I'm betting if we search the annals deep enough, we'll find a similar site visit by Macdonald and Whigham to set Thomas' floral floundering straight!  

Oh, what would we have all done without M&W's advising on probably every single course of note during the Golden Age if we dig deep enough.   Six degrees of separation?   Nah, M&W touched everything, everywhere, directly, and nothing at all would have transpired in the building of great courses across the land if they hadn't lent their 2 or 3 days of expertise to each budding architect, which was obviously enough to create a virtual army of instant architectural geniuses across the land!  

Is it any coincidence that the "Dark Ages" of golf design corresponded exactly to the timeframe of Macdonald's death?

[TEPaul]

"I always considered Hugh Wilson, of Merion, Pennsylvania, as one of the best of our architects, professional or amateur. He taught me many things at Merion and Philadephia Municipal; and when I was building my first California courses, he kindly advised me by letter when I wrote him concerning them."
George Thomas


What do you suppose Wilson advised Thomas on? My bet is that the vast majority was probably connected to agronomy in some way or form.

I think most of us today are totally unaware just how important and also how unknown and problematic that area of golf architecture was back in that day.

Today we are all miles past that overarching problem. And for that American agronomy and the initial understanding of it can hardly find anyone as important to thank for that as Merion's Hugh Wilson. The death of Frederick Winslow Taylor in Philadelphia in 1915 was a real wake-up call to him and that's basically when and where it all began.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

It sounds pretty obvious to me that Hugh Wilson deserves co-design credit for Riviera, doncha think?  

[Mike_Cirba]

"I always considered Hugh Wilson, of Merion, Pennsylvania, as one of the best of our architects, professional or amateur. He taught me many things at Merion and Philadephia Municipal; and when I was building my first California courses, he kindly advised me by letter when I wrote him concerning them."
George Thomas


What do you suppose Wilson advised Thomas on? My bet is that the vast majority was probably connected to agronomy in some way or form.

Tom,

That's poor unbridled speculation on your part, and the fact that Thomas mentioned Wilson's architecture skills seems like a smoking gun to me!

Once again, you have an ignorant babe-in-the-woods (George Thomas), who would be completely lost in building courses in Californina without the ADVICE of now expert (by virtue of his 3 days with Macdonald and Whigham) Hugh Wilson.

Did Thomas ever go overseas?  

Once again, Tom, the absence of evidence does not indicate evidence of absence!  I believe we should take George Thomas at his word that Hugh Wilson had a direct and very important advisement role at Thomas' first California courses.

Now, THAT is a situation that has been lamentably ignored throughout history and I'm going to rectify it!  

How should it read?

Hmmm...

Let's see;  Los Angeles Country Club - Hugh Wilson/George Thomas 1923

Riviera Country Club - Hugh Wilson/George Thomas 1925


Unless you guys can prove me differently, is there any reason we shouldn't take George Thomas at his word about Hugh Wilson's important design input in Thomas' first California courses??    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoffrey Childs,

TEPaul's unfamiliarity with the golf course at NGLA doesn't surprise me, it's simply an architectural blind spot that he can't overcome, even with his faithful guidedog, "Coorshaw" and my continuing assistance..

If he can't tell the difference between the 2nd and 3rd holes at NGLA, how can understand the concept of returning the architectural features back into play on # 7 and # 18 ?

How can he understand the benefits derived by merely moving the entry gates 50 feet or 50 yards north of their present location and moving the tee back to bring the left side crossing bunkers back into play on the drive ?

That bunker is globally CRITICAL to the play of the hole.
It affects every shot because of the impact on the drive.

How can he understand the benefits derived from moving the 7th tee back so that the "Hotel" bunker complex is brought back into play ?

That complex is also critical, in a global sense, to the play of the hole.  It affects the drive, second and third shots.

Perhaps TE is confused because he thinks # 7 at NGLA is really # 3 at SH.

[JESII]

TEP,

I assume the opening to your post #201 is a direct email from TM...is the implication that Wilson could not possibly have gone to GB any earlier than 1912?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

Always glad to help  

A Happy and Healthy New Year!

[TEPaul]

Tom,
It sounds pretty obvious to me that Hugh Wilson deserves co-design credit for Riviera, doncha think?"

MikeC:

I don't know whether he deserves co-design credit for Riviera but I think David Moriarty in the name of consistency should  start another thread about Riviera and Wilson's part in it so we can all argue for 30 pages about what the exact definition and meaning of Wilson's "advice" and "assistance" and "involvment" was in the layout, design and construction of Riviera. He probably needs to check the manifests of all trains from California to the East and back too so we can all see when Thomas may've been over here consulting with Wilson. I wouldn't think the fact that Riviera opened about two or more years after Wilson died should have much to do with it, do you?    

[TEPaul]

Pat and Geoffrey:

I think you'll need to do a bit more explaining to convince me why you think that photo above is mislabeled the 11th (now the 2nd) and is actually the Alps green (#3). It doesn't look anything like the Alps green to me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sully:

I don't know whether he deserves co-design credit for Riviera but I think David Moriarty in the name of consistency should  start another thread about Riviera and Wilson's part in it so we can all argue for 30 pages about what the exact definition and meaning of Wilson's "advice" and "assistance" and "involvment" was in the layout, design and construction of Riviera. He probably needs to check the manifests of all trains from California to the East and back too so we can all see when Thomas may've been over here consulting with Wilson. I wouldn't think the fact that Riviera opened about two or more years after Wilson died should have much to do with it, do you?    

Tom,

That was me, that guy who doesn't win all the local and state tournaments around here.  

It occurs to me that Hugh Wilson is almost certainly responsible for the reverse-redan 11th hole at Los Angeles Country Club, having taught neophyte George Thomas the tenets of proper design, as well as the proper dogmatic template hole deification.  

Of course, since Patrick recently argued that the 11th at LACC isn't really a redan, that probably makes sense too, since Hugh Wilson couldn't figure out how to build a real redan on the 3rd at Merion, it's unlikely that he would have been able to translate that information effectively to Thomas, especially given that they are both ass-backwards reverse-redans.

Speaking of ass-backwards, it's probably germane at this point to mention that the day I played the 11th at LACC, I was part of a threesome of left-handers;

Me,

Geoffrey Childs,


and

David Moriarty!


Another piece of the puzzle for you all to ponder!

Coincidence?   I think not.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat and Geoffrey:

I think you'll need to do a bit more explaining to convince me why you think that photo above is mislabeled the 11th (now the 2nd) and is actually the Alps green (#3). It doesn't look anything like the Alps green to me.

Tom

I found that photo and the others while looking through Golf Illustrated or American Golfer (forgot which) in the digitized versions available on line.  The photo was clearly labeled as The Alps Hole from NGLA. While the trench bunker fronting the green is obviously more elaborate (and it also removed the Silva-like myth of linear geometric Macdonald bunker style from my mind) the back of the green and berm is like Alps as well as the pole sitting where the current bell tower is  located.

edit - Sahara #2 has a right greenside bunker.  For this to be Sahara the line of play would be from the left of the picture.  The picture pretty clearly shows a green much higher to the right edge of the photo.  If I'm not mistaken, Sahara green runs away from front to back therefore the photo can't be #2.

[Mike_Cirba]

So, for discussion purposes, let's assume that every manifest is complete and has been reviewed accurately and Wilson didn't go to GB until 1912, and then only for a couple of months.

How does that play into the 1 overnite stay by the committee with Macdonald & Whigham, and a single site visit each of the next subsequent two years by the dynamic duo?

How does that play into the fact that Merion never asked the golfing version of Batman and Robin to visit, or consult, or advise ever again beyond those three whole days, even though they built the West course immediately after the East, and then revised the East a number of times in the next 15 years or so?

Could it be that these guys figured it all out for themselves, through "studying course construction as no man before him (them)", according to Max Behr in 1914??

Yes, that is exactly what this all seems like.  In fact, isn't that the inescapable conclusion???  If someone thinks differently, I wish they'd just come out and say it and then explain why they feel that way!  

If anything, after reading this thread I'm frankly even MORE impressed with Hugh Wilson and the Committee and William Flynn and Fred Pickering for pulling this off with so little in the way of prior experience, even though Flynn had designed a course in New England and Pickering had built a number of courses prior.

This whole thread gives absolutely new meaning to exactly how "HOMEGROWN" the effort to build Merion East was.    

That's AWESOME!  

[JESII]

I think what Tom MacWood means by both posts, is that these shipping manifests are turning out to be quite accurate, and complete, especially for the American Lines which Wilson would have undoubtedly have traveled on regarding anything to do with Merion.

David,

You are starting to strut a little bit...was this manifest a documentation of Wilson going to or returning from GB?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

You are starting to strut a little bit...

Jim,

Do you think?   I'm not sure what we're supposed to infer from the news that Wilson may not have travelled before 1912?

We're still left with a one night site visit to NGLA, and two visits in the next two years by M&W to Merion, and then nothing ever again?

Are we to infer that in these 3 days over 3 years, Macdonald and Whigham really had something significant to do with the design of Merion?  

Uh huh.  Yep.

If that's the case, we'd better check out everywhere that M&W travelled together and separately between 1910 and 1935 and give them credit for any courses they stopped at along the way, as well.   Might as well throw Raynor in there, too.  

If they could communicate to the ignorant committee how to build Merion in 48-72 hours over 3 years, then just think how many lesser courses they were probably responsible for where they only were onsite 8-24 hours!  

[TEPaul]

TEPaul,
It seems you are sharing private emails again.  What a surprise.  Perhaps  you should call Tommy in a rage and have him delete your posts of the thread."

No, Moriarty, I doubt they are to be considered private emails by me, Wayne Morrison or Tom MacWood. Since he obviously chose on his own initiative to not participate on this website any longer I suppose the email mode is the only way he might want to continue to participate. They came to me and Wayne from Tom MacWood unsolicited by by either or us and he certainly never asked or implied they not be shared on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

Not that any of this between Tom MacWood and Wayne and me is any business of yours other than to allow you to continue to stir the pot and muddy the waters.

You should learn to confine yourself to things that concern you. Petty remarks like yours above are only going to create another confrontation between us at some point. I'd just as soon avoid it but your remarks above obviously indicate apparently you would just as soon have another confrontation.

[Eric Pevoto]

An overlooked aspect in all this legalese, in my opinion, is the fact that the committee and the construction supervisor (Flynn) all carried over from the Haverford site.  Having managed/maintained a golf course for several years prior, it wasn't as if they were all complete novices.  How much of the design "philosophy" was simply a reaction to the more rudimentary course at the old cricket club?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat and Geoffrey:

I think you'll need to do a bit more explaining to convince me why you think that photo above is mislabeled the 11th (now the 2nd) and is actually the Alps green (#3). It doesn't look anything like the Alps green to me.

TEPaul,

Then look at it again.

It bears a strking resemblance to the current green, from the high plateau right to the slope down to the lower left.

Also read pages 85-86 in "The Evangelist of Golf"

Also look at the pictures Geoffrey posted.

Then, take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

Geoffrey Childs,

Thanks,

I hope 2007 brings you and everyone else, happiness and good health.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think what Tom MacWood means by both posts, is that these shipping manifests are turning out to be quite accurate, and complete, especially for the American Lines which Wilson would have undoubtedly have traveled on regarding anything to do with Merion.

David,

How can you conclude that because noone else has produced a manifest indicating the Wilson sailed overseas, that he didn't sail overseas ?

You also never explained why the manifest on the S.S. Philadelphia listed a "Wilson" as sailing to America FROM Cherbourg, and NOT FROM Liverpool and/or Southampton which were the ports of call for the S.S. Philadelphia.

Where are the manifests reflecting Wilson's outbound voyage from America to France or the UK ?

Why would you conclude that Wilson would only sail on American Lines's vessels ?

It looks as if Wilson just did not take two trips, and that his only one was in 1912, after he designed the "rough draft" of the holes at Merion East.  

How can you conclude that when you can't produce the outbound manifest in 1912 or explain why the manifest lists A Wilson's departure from Cherbourg, France, and not any port in the UK ?

David,

In addition, how do you explain the citations that the committee instructed Wilson to visit the UK and that the record seems fairly clear that he visited CBM prior to sailing in 1910 ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Dave, you've been a busy boy this AM!  

      With all of these answers to so many threats, questions and points, I was wondering if you were then going to be able to give answer to my question which I have asked, not once or twice but three times?
      I recognized that you felt the need to respond to questions or points would no longer happen, not even in discussing any “main issues”. I refer to your post, #188, where you stated:
      “I think our main issues in this thread will not be solved by continued debate, but by compilation and examination of the facts, so I am going to spend what little free time I have to doing that.  I promised JES a timeline and I havent been able to do that, so that will be my next post.”
      You even gentlemanly apologized for doing so as you continued, “Sorry for those of you who have addressed productive posts to me to which I haven't responded…”
      Immediately following that I made one last plea for you to consider what I think is a most important point that you have repeatedly ignored since I first mentioned it, and becomes even more so since you just stated that “by compilation and examination of the FACTS… [Capitals mine]” you would be providing JES with the “timeline” that you had promised him.
      My plea can be found in post #189 immediately following your above post. You will notice that it contains 2 questions. The first is based upon the Travis article and contains a very important hint that MIGHT provide an answer to another question that you have seen important to address despite your statement above that you wouldn’t be doing so.
      The second question is the one that I then asked for the FOURTH time on this thread and that you repeatedly have ignored.
The entire post #189 is:

Pat,
   Doesn't what Travis wrote in January 1913 seem to imply not only that Wilson had gone to France on his trip, but that he brought back either seed or samples of grasses that he used at Merion?
   "On some of the sand mounds I noticed the growing of something which looked suspiciously like the bents of Le Touquet..."
   David, even though you haven't had the time to answer my twice-asked question, I have no problem with you laying out a timeline for JES created "by compilation and examination of the facts..." as long as they are FACTS and not suppositions presented as such.
   In other words, until you present proof that the Wilson on the manifest WAS the Wilson of Merion then you can only state it as a SUPPOSITION and if presented that way I would have no quarrel with it.

      Well, since you have now stated that, “I have redone the outline but am not going to post it for now, at least until the ruckus dies down.  I'd like to actually discuss the issues and our posts…” might you finally consider addressing my question, and notice that this becomes the FOURTH time I ask it for it is only by addressing this issue that your “hypothesis” and/or “timeline” can actually take on the aspect of having been done in a “scientific manner.”

I hate to nudge… but this question really does need answering.  

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Perhaps I'm not explaining it well.

Let me try again at this ungodly hour.

I do believe that the "pre-trip" committee COULD have designed and built the course for the reasons I mentioned.

My point about Macdonald is this;

Let's say you're hypothesis is correct and it was largely Macdonald and Whigham who laid out the original course at Merion, before Wilson and the committee went to NGLA, or at least before Wilson went overseas.

If that were true, then when and where did Wilson get the wherewithal and internal and external reputation to be asked to design the West course within a year of the East being built?   Why were M&W NEVER consulted again, EVER?

Why was Wilson asked by Clarence Geist to then design Seaview the next year?   Why was he asked by the city of Philly the following year?

If what he had learned from M&W in those three days was so vital to the creation of Merion East, or conversely, if M&W actually did most of the layout and design, then why did the committee and membership of Merion never have them consult again?   Why would they have let novice Wilson continue to make significant changes to the East course for the next 13 years?  

If Wilson had been so dependent on M&W for their advice and counsel, and if he was such a novice to have been clueless without their 3 whole days of assistance, then why would any of this have happened, and why would people like Behr, like Tillinghast, and local contemporaneous newswriters have given him credit in the first place for the layout of the two courses at Merion?

It just defies any logic or common sense, David.  

Mike "TE" Cirba:

1.  Since when is my hypothesis that "it was largely Macdonald and Whigham who laid out the original course at Merion, before Wilson and the committee went to NGLA, or at least before Wilson went overseas?"    Did you even make it a single post without falling right back into the same misrepresentation of my position?  Brother.

2.   By the time the East course had opened, HW had been a) taught by CBM, b) designed the course with CBM's advice and suggestions, and had c) traveled to europe to study and come back and started implimenting improvements.  By the time he was done with the West Course, he was probably one of the most experienced designers of the era, excluding the imports.    So I am not surprised that he got other requests at other courses.   But this has nothing to do with whether CBM was of significant help at Merion East.  

David,

You chastise Tom Paul for what you call his insulting posts and then turn around and throw the "TE" into my name?  

Nice.

Is that the way you treat anyone who doesn't agree with your conclusions?   You have presented some interesting facts, David, but once again, very politely, I'd like to state that I don't agree with you on where they lead.

The point of the matter is your statement in #2 above where you say matter of factly that this was all after CB "taught" Wilson.

Well, I certainly wish school was so brief, because I wasn't the most studious person in those years.    

We're talking about the better part of a day (at least 6 hours) travel by the Committee from Philadelphia out to the end of Long Island, some exchange of pleasantries and small-talk about the wife and kids, probably some dinner for all, followed by a discussion long into the night about golf holes and courses.   The group woke up, toured NGLA with Macdonald on foot, where he showed them his work and how he conceived of strategic holes and utilized principles he saw overseas.   Perhaps he spent a little time before they left suggesting that they should go over there and visit and see for themselves.

Then, probably a late lunch, and then more train rides back to Philly.

This is how you define "taught"?    

I'm sure he made wonderful suggestions with great value.   But, how is this any different than what Hugh Wilson taught George Thomas???   You might think my point about Riviera and LACC was facetious and me just being a wiseass, but the point is exactly the same.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that HW spent a great deal more time communicating and visiting with Thomas, than Macdonald spent with Wilson.   Should Wilson deserve some type of additional credit for Riviera and LACC??

Of course not, that's preposterous.  I'm sure you'll say that it's not the same because of M&W's two one-day site visits to Merion over two years, but once again, how much do you really think was accomplished in comparison to what was happening there day after day after day after day for a year, David, especially since if I understand your timeline correctly, the second onsite trip was after the course opened?

Yet, this is what you seem to be suggesting by implication, and I think you jumped the logic track somewhere around Garden City.  

[TEPaul]

Geoffrey:

That photo could be of the old Sahara green. I can't find the material in my files right now but I believe Macdonald moved the 2nd green---the old 11th. The photo could be of the old green that may've been considerably shorter and may've been just over or along side the Sahara bunker. This original photo is at NGLA in one of the photo albums and it's labeled as the Sahara green.

[TEPaul]

"You’ve called me a liar, an unrepentant liar, pathetic, a complete hypocrite, and (my favorite so far) historically dense.  You’ve called my posts bold-faced lies, preposterous, pathetic, weak and pathetic, baseless, hollow and petty carping, and ridiculous."

David Moriarty:

Yes, I called you a liar because you completely lied on here in those bold types of yours I quoted. You said I had left no doubt on here that I felt Wilson could not have layed out, designed and built that golf course without first going to Europe.

I at no time said anything of the kind. I never implied it or intimated it. I've never believed such a thing and I do not now believe it.  Quite the opposite, in fact, and not to mention the fact that he and his committee did lay it out, design it and built it even if Wilson did not go to GB until 1912.

What you were attempting to do is put words in my mouth on this thread to prove part of your "hypothesis" that Wilson and his committee must've been such novices that they had to have considerably more help on the creation of the course from Macdonald and Whigam.

I do not believe that, I never did and the fact is you completely lied in saying I said that. Obviously you're just trying to prove me wrong by trying to make it look like I said such a thing.

I tried to keep that accusation against you private and on the IM but you chose to ignore that and instead insisted it be put on here. And so it is. You lied, it's just as simple as that, as I cut and pasted what you said on here and anyone can read it for themselves.

I'm more than happy to carry on a discussion on the Merion creation but I am not going to allow you to put words in my mouth which are frankly the polar opposite of what I believe so you can attempt to confirm some "hypothesis" of yours and make it look like Wayne or I made some mistake in analyzing Merion East.

You lied and there's no way to avoid it or deny it. A dumb excuse like you offered that you were not singling me out or that some stupid line meant something is just another of your preposterous ploys.

If you want to carry on an intelligent discussion on any subject on here you won't ever be able to do it by lying. You'll be caught at it as you were on this thread.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Quit clogging YOUR thread with verbose posts?

Who the hell do you think you are?

This is GOLFBLUBATLAS.com, pal, and nobody, least of all you, gets some free pass on here in attempting to rewrite the histories and architectural attribution of golf courses some of us know and love without hearing whatever counterpoints anyone cares to offer. If and when you put crap on here like some of the crap you have, the lies and distortions of what others have said, you can pretty much bet your bottom dollar you'll be hearing from me without fail.

[JESII]

Shivas,

As to point #1, you are a month late in that request...on "this thread" DM is not making that assertion.

As to the rest, would you be able to sculpt a masterpiece after a few hours conversation with Michelangelo? You would still be able to admit afterwards (regardless of the outcome) that you really didn't know crap about what you were getting into.

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