News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2002, 10:29:18 AM »
Dan -

Come on, Dan, you sound like a lawyer parsing down statements. Does it depend on what "is" is? :)

I addressed Rich's initial post for two reasons:

1) As I stated, I believe the attitude he expresses is in large part what leads people to believe they can improve any course & as such is quite dangerous.

2) I don't care what you think, it is a miraculously small inference on my part to conclude that the "laughable" part is directed at the many participants of this board that choose to read & research. Good lord, you got offended at my non-sequitor (sp?) on Shakespeare - how can it not be okay to take some offense at calling the well intentioned & solicited(those italics were for Hod:)) advice of one of the more thoughtful posters on this site "laughable?" (And why do the question marks go inside the quotation marks, while I'm complaining?:))

We all have our soapboxes - many complain about bias & bashing to no apparent end. My soapbox is defending the posters on this site. And maybe tearing apart loose logic. :)

-----

I must admit the Shakespeare thing is absolute bias on my part. You are a journalist & likely some kind of English or communications major. I find it absolutely deplorable  that Shakespeare is shoved down everyone's throat ad nauseam while most of the major scientific advances throughout history are largely ignored. I was a math guy in college. :) Physics for Poets is offered at most schools in some form to help out the poor non-science types to get through there science distribution requirements, while I had to sit through the same boring Shakespeare & Faust crap (actually, Faust wasn't so bad) that the non-science guys took. I believe Pennsylvania requires all high school students to take 4 years of English & History, yet only 2 years of math & science. Go figure.

You can have Shakespeare - I'll take Newton.

Sorry about all the smileys - just trying to convey that I'm enjoying this debate, not that I'm angry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2002, 10:42:29 AM »
Rich had it a little bit wrong. The world IS divided into two kinds of people -- but one of those groups is made up of  those who think Shakespeare is crap.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

THuckaby2

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2002, 10:57:47 AM »
Oh how true that is, Rick.  And I've avoided this thread like the plague so far - it's been fun for me to watch Rich getting beat on a little, in a perverse way, given the beating I took on the "new courses thread"....

But Shakespeare v. Newton I just can't resist.  What a cool dividing line that is.

I've always said the world is divided into "word people" and "math people" and ne'er the twain shall meet.  A much better way to put this is indeed Shakepeareans and Newtonites.

And I am most definitely a Shakespearean.

Oh, I have nothing against the Newtonites - they have created the wondrous technology we have today.  The grand philosophical question is, however, is the world indeed a "better" place with these advances.  Talk about potential for a deep discussion.... it really isn't as simple as you likely think, George....

For me it comes down to this:  Newton explains, Shakespeare gives meaning.

Now is this the furthest afield from golf course architecture we have ever gotten here?   ;)

Unfortunately, the bottom line is I love ya George, but I know you will never convince me just as I will certainly never convince you, if this "debate" occurs.

So I say we just make peace - you likely think we Shakespeareans are worthless, and that's ok.  I can suffer the slings and arrows of your contempt, without this becoming the summer of my discontent.   ;)

In essence anyway I just wanted to give kudos to the Newton v. Shakespeare distinction.  Well done, George!
TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2002, 10:59:04 AM »
George --

So much to say, and so little time!

(1) I'm a writer and an editor.
   My brother is a lawyer.
   My dad was a lawyer.
   My dad's dad was a lawyer.
   I can't help caring about what words mean! I can't help caring about precision in language. Parsemoniousness (smiley) is in my blood.

(2) I'm sorry, but no matter what you (and Geoff S) may think, Rich never said one should tear up a course based solely on one's own experience of playing it. Rich never said one should tear up a course without so much as a backward glance at its history.
     If others believe (and have acted on their belief) that one SHOULD tear up a course based solely on one's own experience of playing it, without so much as a backward glance at its history ... well, to hell with them! But I have no doubt at all about this: You would not find Mr. Goodale among their company.

(3) I did NOT take offense at your comment about Shakespeare. I take offense very, very rarely. I merely found your comment ... what's the word? ... unthinkable!

(4) Question marks do NOT go inside the quotation marks, unless the question mark is part of the quoted material. As in: (a) Why do you find my position "laughable"? (b) "He said: 'Why do you find my position laughable?' "
    Periods and commas always go inside the quotation marks. Other punctuation marks (question marks, exclamation points, dashes, semicolons, colons, etc.) go outside the quotation marks UNLESS THEY'RE PART OF THE MATERIAL BEING QUOTED. Why? Who "knows"?

(5) I was a History major. Your hypothesis is rejected! (Smiley.)

(6) Please do not infer that my fondness for Shakespeare (or my concentration in History) is in any way meant as (a) a slight to Sir Isaac Newton, or to any other scientist or science major, living or dead; or (b) an argument in favor of (i) "Physics for Poets" or (ii) any unbalanced high-school curriculum, in Pennsylvania or any other state!

(7) I will leave you with this thought -- which, I gather from your earlier remarks, you will enjoy: "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
     "Henry IV, Part II," Act IV, Scene ii
     By William Shakespeare
     All the lawyers -- except, maybe, my brother, and Shivas, and Doug Wright, and ...

Smiley, smiley, smiley... (Law Firm of the Day: Smiley, Smiley & Smiley, P.A.)

Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth...

Dr. Katz? Stat!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2002, 11:16:09 AM »
Dan -

Thanks for the grammar lesson (I was always taught that quotation marks are always last) and the reminder of one of my all time favorite quotes - in spite of the fact that almost every teacher I had & many friends feel that I would best be suited for a career in law. Hey, now that I think about it, maybe they were slamming me, that's a reasonable inference.:)

For the record, I never said Rich would advocate tearing up any course. Indeed, I said to Hod on one of my posts that I respect Rich's views a great deal. What I said (you don't even have to infer it) was that it was this type of attitude that was dangerous & that it has destroyed many a classic course. The notion that golf experience supercedes all else leads lesser individuals to wreak havoc on many courses, old & new, classic or otherwise. My own home course, a nice old relic called North Park Golf Course, an Allegheny County muni, exhibits this all the time with mindless tree & bunker additions.

I still stand by my other inferences & slanderous remarks re: Bill Shakespeare. Then again, I'm somewhat hard of hearing, so maybe I just can't understand those darn accents. :)

P.S. History, English, same thing.  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2002, 11:35:09 AM »
Shakespearean Question - Is a thoughtless redesign by any other name (i.e. restoration) any less beautiful?

Newtonian Answer - Yes.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2002, 05:54:54 PM »
Dan:

You may be very good at reading what someone is technically writing but some of us are six steps ahead and around the corner from you because not only do we know what Rich Goodale is technically writing but we also know what he's actually saying and why and further we know exactly what he means-or let's say what he's actually thinking despite what he writes or even later writes that he means!

But nevertheless it's nice to have our own inhouse editor as it is to have our own inhouse psychiatrist!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2002, 06:48:17 PM »
To take this as far off topic as possible.   Huckaby, have you read Bloom's "Shakespeare and the Invention of the Human."  

And Yes, George, that means you have arranged to play golf with a (shudder) Shakespearean.

Maybe we could all have a discussion based on C. P. Snow's "The Two Cultures."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

TEPaul

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2002, 07:36:43 PM »
OhMYGOD, now we have some kind of literary genius on our golf architecture website!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2002, 07:45:03 PM »
An English professor of mine at Oxford once remarked that he thought that Dr. Crapper had done more for mankind than Shakespeare and Marlowe combined.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2002, 08:01:09 PM »
Bob --

That must be why he couldn't get a job at Cambridge -- eh?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2002, 08:10:27 PM »
Bob:

Did you know that it was Dr. Crapper who designed TOC? Most people attribute it to God, but there's no way that's true--I just came across Crapper's individual hole blueprints and it's all there--designed just "as was"!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2002, 06:14:18 AM »

Quote
To take this as far off topic as possible.   Huckaby, have you read Bloom's "Shakespeare and the Invention of the Human."  


No... but I'd have to guess my Dad has (talk about a Shakespearean - he taught the classes George hates for 40 years)... and in any case it sounds to me like I need to find it!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2002, 06:30:12 AM »
i think this thread is misappropriately named.  rather it should be "golf is a game we play so we can talk about it".

would you have the same enjoyment from golf if you were mute and illiterate?  would the interior monologue in your head be as wonderfully cacophonous as this thread ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2002, 06:37:18 AM »
Speaking of the name of the thread made me think of Khristine Janusik of the Ross archive fame. She doesn't play yet must be as immersed as the rest of us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2002, 12:19:43 PM »
Dan Kelly:

Touche.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2002, 02:00:17 PM »
Dan Kelly, TEPaul et al.......

The enigma of Thomas Crapper is solved.

see:

http://www.rotorooter.com/fun_history_1904.html

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2002, 02:32:16 PM »
Seeing that explanation of how doughboys in England coined the word "crap" I now know why and how the Scots invented the term "shank."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

allysmith

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2002, 12:37:35 AM »
Rich,

I think that the scots word 'shankers' was maybe a miss spell when describing a committee group in the 1800s who decided to build new tees, loose the best bunkers and introduce cocktails to the Luncheon menu.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #94 on: October 01, 2002, 10:57:49 AM »
Rich Goodale,

I go away for a week and chaos breaks out.

Somehow those who visit and post on this site have taken it upon themselves to ordain that no research has taken place at this club, on Tucker or some of his courses.  

How did they arrive at that conclusion  ?

Perhaps the research was done some time ago, negating the need to update such research every year.

I wonder if those who feel that the answer lies in READING, put any credibility in those dating books, like....
"HOW TO SCORE ON EVERY DATE."  or
"HOW TO PLEASE A WOMAN EVERY TIME",
or the money making books,
"HOW TO MAKE A FORTUNE IN REAL ESTATE, WITH NO MONEY"

Reading can be informative, but it doesn't convey talent, which is inate.  

I could read all the books in the world about drawing and painting, but I just don't have the eye nor the talent for it.

Geoff Shackelford,

Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted your post, but it seems to me that one can't disqualify an individual's architectual insight because they haven't read, books deemed essential by some,
to the furthering of their architectural education.

There seems to be, on the part of some, an attempt to disqualify or dismiss players, especially good ones, as serious architectural minds.  Charles Blair MacDonald, Donald Ross and Ben Crenshaw would seem to be evidence to dispute that theory.

If one has an abundance of PLAYING EXPERIENCE, it doesn't render them automatically incapable of being impartial.
They are capable of not giving undue special weight or attention to the low, or high handicapper.  Instead, they too can forge a tactical challenge that each group can aspire to, without removing the factor of enjoyment.

This notion, that players, especially good players are architectually tainted by their athletic talent, is nonsense.

Each individual should be judged by their architectural abilities, not by their handicap or the number of rounds they play, or don't play.

All too often, in many fields, there is an elitist attempt to quiet the voices of talented individuals who don't have the right pedigree.

Jim Kennedy, et. al.,

Educating the membership can have a disruptive effect on the club.  I've never believed in petitions, as I believe that they are devisive and counter productive to the overall health of the membership.  Once you begin the engagement process, the political lines are drawn, and the feud begins.  Once you go public, you can't go back to working behind the scenes, which I would prefer to do.

As a last ditch effort, if I thought, unequivically, that the course was going to be ruined, I would consider going to battle prior to the general membership meeting.

I have had two one hour meetings with the project chairman and another concerned individual.  We have made significant progress.  Another meeting is planned for thursday, and I'm hopeful that a RESTORATION effort will be the result of that meeting.

Keep in mind that the project chairman is a lifelong friend, as are other individuals involved in this situation.

I'm also curious as to how many of the posters who have offered their sage advice solve differences of opinion on domestic issues in their households ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken_Cotner

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2002, 12:30:11 PM »

Quote

I'm also curious as to how many of the posters who have offered their sage advice solve differences of opinion on domestic issues in their households ;D

Pat, that one is easy.  The answer is the same every time, in one form or another:  "Yes, dear, whatever you say" OR "Of course you are right, dear, what was I thinking."  OR "I'll jump on that project right now; let me just put my clubs back in the shed."   ;D

Ken
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2002, 01:52:31 PM »
Ken Cotner,

The price we pay for peace and piece.

The concessions we make in the name of hopeful harmony.

Sometimes, it's no different at a golf or country club.

As married individuals can attest, It's easy to posture on your key board, but when someone you live with every day makes a demand, embarks upon siege warfare, or disagrees on an issue, no matter how big or how small, sometimes early settlement, and/or compromise allows one to continue with the reasonable enjoyment of their activities and/or lives.

At country clubs, with relatives, acquaintances and friends, sometimes the same forces come into play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken_Cotner

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2002, 02:30:46 PM »

Quote
Ken Cotner,

The price we pay for peace and piece.

The concessions we make in the name of hopeful harmony.

Sometimes, it's no different at a golf or country club.

As married individuals can attest, It's easy to posture on your key board, but when someone you live with every day makes a demand, embarks upon siege warfare, or disagrees on an issue, no matter how big or how small, sometimes early settlement, and/or compromise allows one to continue with the reasonable enjoyment of their activities and/or lives.

At country clubs, with relatives, acquaintances and friends, sometimes the same forces come into play.

Pat,

Piece?  What's that? ???

"Early settlement"...for me this is known as "cave quickly".  ;)

BTW, much congratulations on your Senior Am.  Next year it's on to match play!

K
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2002, 03:29:32 AM »
Pat
When was the architectural high point of the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf is a game we play.....
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2002, 08:13:20 AM »
Pat

Two things...one, I'm wondering how you are going to word you're answer to the "piece" question. Are you going to rely on your experience or your  research?

Secondly, congratulations on the Senior Am. What a thrill it must be to  play in a USGA event. It may interest you to know that there was a complete stranger to you (namely me) checking the scores in the paper (during morning constitution) to find out how you did. As luck would have it, the Houston paper cut the scores of the first round off right after your name. So it looked like you were last in the field. Knowing the paper like I do I knew this not to be the case.

But it did remind me of a funny story told to me years ago. (I hope you take this in the proper vein):  Seems that when Butch Harmon played the tour (early 70s), he went through a tough stretch of missed cuts. And his dad (who never missed a chance with the needle) would talk to him and the conversation would go something along these lines:

Claude Sr.:  "Well, son, I see you won another tournament out there."

Butch: "Actually, Dad, I've missed the last two cuts."

Claude Sr.: "I see...Must have been looking at my paper upside down."

Congrats, Pat
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back