[John Kavanaugh]

Once you get beyond lost balls, which I admit can be a pain in the pocket, I don't get this problem with people saying courses are too hard.  Why do you care if you shoot 83, 93 or 103 as long as your opponents are playing the same course.  note:  If you think it results in play that is too slow for your taste then don't become a member.  note note:  This thread is about private courses since publics need to be easier just cause.  note cubed:  The bitching about Dismal River being hard is the poster child for this thread.

[Sean Leary]

JK,

I think some people will say that they don't have fun if it is too hard.  As relatively low handicapper, I like courses that play hard, as that is part of the fun. The downside to my home course is that even from the correct set of tees, high handicap player will often lose a lot of balls, even though the fairways are enormous. Beyond that, which I think is a major drawback, I can't see much else.

[cary lichtenstein]

The downside for me, and I find very few courses to hard, but those that I do, I just don't go back. Anyone can design a course that beats you up, what fun exactly is that.

I remember that I played once in a member guest on a very old course. Every hole was wooded and tight and the trees on the right invaded the right side of the fairway. Way overgrown.

I draw the ball and I must have had my ball knocked down 6 times that day. I have alot of difficulty hitting fades.

If I never play another course like that again, it is fine with me.

[Adrian_Stiff]

JK,

I think some people will say that they don't have fun if it is too hard.  As relatively low handicapper, I like courses that play hard, as that is part of the fun. The downside to my home course is that even from the correct set of tees, high handicap player will often lose a lot of balls, even though the fairways are enormous. Beyond that, which I think is a major drawback, I can't see much else.

Sean, I almost think you need to think of the words 'enjoyment value'. Some people will really want to play a difficult course and some will want an easy test, its hard, probably impossible to please both parties using the same course. For relatively high handicappers, too many forced carries that lose balls will narrow their enjoyment value. I am based at a very difficult golf course and the comments I hear are "I love it, but its too hard for me". On the other side of the coin, we have 213 members better than 6 handicap, so it has attracted a type of player who wants to be challenged and enjoys a tough course. We do well with societies and group play, but quite often people join in groups of 4 and if Harry can't get round the other three will play where Harry can. We dont have a lot of senior players and we have some really strange times where virtually no one plays, the course is virtually deserted Monday - Friday up to 10.00, at nearby clubs thats peak time.

[Sean Leary]

JK,

I think some people will say that they don't have fun if it is too hard.  As relatively low handicapper, I like courses that play hard, as that is part of the fun. The downside to my home course is that even from the correct set of tees, high handicap player will often lose a lot of balls, even though the fairways are enormous. Beyond that, which I think is a major drawback, I can't see much else.

Sean, I almost think you need to think of the words 'enjoyment value'. Some people will really want to play a difficult course and some will want an easy test, its hard, probably impossible to please both parties using the same course. For relatively high handicappers, too many forced carries that lose balls will narrow their enjoyment value. I am based at a very difficult golf course and the comments I hear are "I love it, but its too hard for me". On the other side of the coin, we have 213 members better than 6 handicap, so it has attracted a type of player who wants to be challenged and enjoys a tough course. We do well with societies and group play, but quite often people join in groups of 4 and if Harry can't get round the other three will play where Harry can. We dont have a lot of senior players and we have some really strange times where virtually no one plays, the course is virtually deserted Monday - Friday up to 10.00, at nearby clubs thats peak time.

Adrian,  I think the greatest courses can please both. But when people get beat up, it is because they lose balls or they are playing a course that is too long for their ability.  That is why John's premise here rings true with me.

BTW, my home course sounds just like yours.

[Matt_Cohn]

It takes longer.

People get frustrated and it affects their on-course personality.

It's more expensive, because you lose more golf balls.

It takes longer!

(I'm reaching now.) It can stand in the way of making beneficial architectural changes, specifically widening fairways and cutting down trees, for fear of losing the difficulty the course is known for.

Likewise, maintining difficulting can become the justification for unnecessary architectural additions - more trees, new back tees, etc.

That's about all I've got. I like hard courses, though, as long as it's the kind of hard where you can still find your golf ball.

[rjsimper]

The downside to courses being hard is that in less-than-ideal conditions, the appeal of the challenge is lost.  

Wind, cold, rain, etc are all palatable on a course that is a stiff challenge in 70 degrees of calm is a place I want to avoid when the wind kicks up.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have as many fun memories of guys getting killed on holes as seeing them hit great shots.  I don't know why but the majority of people I know, and I think the golfing world in general, will always choose to play a course with a hard rep over one with a soft rep.  To a tee soft rep courses are always cheaper to boot.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

The best kind of hard is when you come off the course with a high score and you think you could have done much better if only for a couple of stray shots.  That makes you want to go back out and try again.

However, if you come off the course believing you have faced many shots beyond your normal ability, you aren't going back.  To me there are two kinds of shots which fit that description -- really tight tee shots with a severe penalty for a miss, or approaches to smallish greens where I just don't feel like I can hold the green with the club I have in my hand.  (I am sure, for others, heavily contoured greens fall into the same category, but I always feel like I had a chance to stay below the hole in that case.)

I haven't seen Dismal River so I don't know where it falls or not.  Jack usually gives you plenty of room to play golf and he loves small greens, so I would expect to encounter more of my second pet peeve than my first.  Also, Ryan's point rings true in the sand hills ... there will be a lot of days where playability is tested by the wind.

[Lou_Duran]

I like a difficult course that exposes your weaknesses when playing poorly, but that allows good scores when you're striking the ball well.  The Scarlet course at Ohio State was a good example of this type of course.

I don't like hard courses that are hard just for the sake of trying to be "the most difficult in the state".  The Ram Rock course at Horseshoe Bay is of this vein, where even a near tour quality player has a difficult time breaking par on his better days.  With some hesitation, I may add Winged Foot West to this category.

Adrian,

If I may ask, what is the golf club where there are over 200 members at 6 and under.  Champions in Houston has a reputation for having a bunch of good players, but I didn't think it had that many.  I've heard boasts that it had the best playing membership in the country.





   

[John Kirk]

I don't mind paying for lost balls.  I don't like looking for them.  It puts the round of golf on hold.  With respect to Dismal River, my greatest concern is looking in the native for balls.  My other concern is hitting approach shots that look good but end up in places where it's hard to get up and down.

A friend told me he thought Dismal has more appeal for the better golfer, and thought I would enjoy it.  He has a handicap around 13, and doesn't hit the ball very far, maybe 200-210 on flat ground at sea level.  He said he was continually faced with blind approaches (at DR).

Hitting good shots without the rewards of good results eventually demoralizes the golfer.

[Phil_the_Author]

The number of those from GCA and elsewhere who ask my help in trying to get them a tee time on Bethpage Black is both astounding and complimentary...

Hard is one thing; a GREAT and memorable golf course is quite something else...

p.s. - don't ask...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I like a difficult course that exposes your weaknesses when playing poorly, but that allows good scores when you're striking the ball well.  The Scarlet course at Ohio State was a good example of this type of course.

I don't like hard courses that are hard just for the sake of trying to be "the most difficult in the state".  The Ram Rock course at Horseshoe Bay is of this vein, where even a near tour quality player has a difficult time breaking par on his better days.  With some hesitation, I may add Winged Foot West to this category.

Adrian,

If I may ask, what is the golf club where there are over 200 members at 6 and under.  Champions in Houston has a reputation for having a bunch of good players, but I didn't think it had that many.  I've heard boasts that it had the best playing membership in the country.





   

www.theplayersgolfclub.com  its in the UK

[John Kavanaugh]

If easy courses are more enjoyable then why aren't they more expensive.  Does a bad golfer ever join a private course for the golf..

[C. Squier]

The only downside to playing a very hard course is that it can make bad swing thoughts even worse.  I'm a 2.5 that can play to an 18 for about 3 rounds a year, I just hope when those 3 rounds come around, the aftershocks don't stick around too long.  

I'll take a very hard course over a cakewalk any day of the week.  I joined Wolf Run GC as a national member because its a very interesting course w/ no 2 holes alike and provides a very stern test of golf.  I can bring friends there for 36-72 holes of hard golf and they don't get burned out.  If that was my daily play course, I think some of my friends would frustrated quickly since they're not as die hard as I am and are higher handicaps.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Clint,

When playing a Nassau one day at Wolf Run I came to the ninth hole 2 down and made a double bogey 6 to win by 2.  My friend who was a scratch himself at the time made a 10.  It was over 15 years ago and to this day it makes me smile.  Later that day on 13 I pushed my drive 40 yds right down the hill and by the time I hacked my way back up to the green my friend was laying on the ground laughing his ass off.  We thought I was going to die as it was one of those 100 deg humid days.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Nobody wants to admit they enjoy an easy golf course.  When somebody does profess to liking a course that is relatively short or easy compared to other top-100 tests, they nearly always insist that it is not as easy as people say!

But there is a difference between "easy" and "challenging" and "over the top".  There aren't many courses which qualify for the last category but that is what I thought we were debating.  Challenging courses are always popular because golfers want a challenge.  Easy equals boring for most golfers, even bad golfers, because an easy course gives them nothing to blame their troubles on.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

Nobody wants to admit they enjoy an easy golf course.  When somebody does profess to liking a course that is relatively short or easy compared to other top-100 tests, they nearly always insist that it is not as easy as people say!

That is a true observation that I often would make myself about Evansville CC when I was a member there.  I would also like to say that it played longer than the yardage.

[Gary Slatter]

A well designed course can look tougher than it plays, subliminal options is the term I heard George Archer use in 1969 when he was referring to a tough new bunker that no one could reach off the tee.  And an easy course can be "quirked" to play tougher.
Enjoyable experience from the middle to front tees is my main criteria, most golfers like to be tested and the easiest course still tests the beginner.  Our pocketbook will also help decide what course gets our business on a regular basis,  with the price of balls being what it is one factor, and enjoyment being another.
A tough new course tends to be very much in demand at first, then as players slowly slink away to other courses it seems the tough course gets softened to maintain their business. Most single handicap golfers love to get beat up every so often and if they play match play it's great fun to challenge a tough track. Courtney Love always seems to find a date.

[Adam Clayman]

J.B.You might as well ask why some people hate playing golf in the wind.

I;m under the impression great designs provide variety that transcends ease or difficulty.

Ease and difficulty can be fleeting. The elements and maintenace presentations shine, when everything comes together, to make matters challenging. Who doesn't relish a challenge? If it's a continual slog of the same challenge, how long does it take to get bored? (Wait, I can answer that...It takes 13+ years of at least five rounds a week. )

Take Pebble Beach as i.e. Under calm conditions the challenge is there for everyone. For the better golfer it's about getting it really close. For the mid-average, it's about hitting the green. Bring on the wind and elements and we have ourselves a test that goes beyond GIR's and putts sunk.  A very spiritual difficult test. One any golfer no matter ability, will remember for a lifetime. Similar to our December round in So. Indiana.

If anyone hasn't read the article that was recently posted from the late 19th Century, about Chicago golf, I highly recommend it. It illustrates how the newer golfers, introduced to the game by CBM, preferred the tree filled, flower ridden style of courses. Ignoring the teachers gift, taking American versions of the sport to the level that has culminated in the ridiculous fallacy that hard always means good.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I'm very much on the record as someone who enjoys easier courses - indeed, my ideal course is one which is both very interesting and relatively easy. I love playing courses like TOC or Machrihanish (big greens, not too much length, few if any chances at incurring penalty strokes, loads of interesting contour) when there's little or no wind; to score super-well you need to play precise approaches and think your way around the course a bit, but to lose shots quickly you usually have to combine mental and physical mistakes on the same shot. That, of course, is plenty easy for most of us to do...which is why I firmly believe that golf is a difficult game even on the easiest courses!

Cheers,
Darren

[Mark_F]

If easy courses are more enjoyable then why aren't they more expensive.  Does a bad golfer ever join a private course for the golf..

Yep.  

[Jon Wiggett]

I think easy or difficult is only relevant if you are judging the course by par. One of my top 3 favourite courses, Kilspindie, is quite an easy couse when judged so but there are a couple of par 4s such as the 18th that I feel I should be able to play in 3 shots. The 18th is a stern test when played so.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

why should enjoyable cost more?

[SB]

I think I've mentioned this before, but I've looked at actual play patterns of a lot of multi-course clubs and, in every case, the course that is LESS difficult gets more play.  Golfers are voting with their feet and, while we like to talk about enjoying a good challenge, golfers do not like to play them on a regular basis.  

Therefore:  Difficult courses are more expensive because fewer people are playing and they need the extra revenue to pay the bills.

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