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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Atlantic City--Thoughts?
« on: December 22, 2006, 09:53:03 AM »
 We managed 27 yesterday. Unfortunately, Doug couldn't make it.
 
   I imagine the $79 deal works next week. I would love to go back. It looks like low 40's all next week.

   It is a wonderful experience.

    What grass did they use on the greens?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 10:01:34 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 10:08:06 AM »
Mayday,

I am headed down the shore this afternoon.  I am going to try and play ACCC on either Sunday or Tuesday, depending on the weather.

I agree with you that is a wonderful experience in all senses of the word.  The service is top notch without being over the top if you know what I mean.

I heard a rumor that ACC may be offering memberships in some form starting next year.  It may be a semi-private type deal. I'm waiting to hear what the cost may be as it would something to consider since I spend most of my summer weekend's down there.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 10:22:30 AM »
Mayday, I'm still a 'wacko', though, right?  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike_Cirba

Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 10:23:20 AM »
Mayday,

What day were you thinking?

I'm out of town thru Tues., but could do any day but Saturday after then.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 10:30:19 AM »
 The forecast looks fairly consistent at this point, so I'm flexible. I'll check on the weekend rate.

   $79 weekday--$105 weekend and holiday
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 10:33:18 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 10:37:24 AM »
 Tuesday's weather looks iffy right now.  

   I think trying for Wednesday and then adjusting ,if necessary, is a good idea.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 10:38:05 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2006, 10:42:37 AM »
mayday,

Sounds like a good plan.  Count me in.  

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2006, 11:01:58 AM »
 :D 8)


Hey guys,
merry Christmas to all.


We're having a Christmas scramble ( disorganized of course) at Greate Bay Tuesday. We'll set the teams like the NCAA, e.g. #1 seed John Appleget with # 48 Archie Struthers (lol) and so on. We played last week and had a great time.

Figured to two- man scramble it as a change of pace and because the greens were core aerated last month, they are a little rough but playable, someone shot 69 on his own ball last week, so there is a way to do it!

Anyone interested IM me at GCA, balls' in the air at 11:00 sharp!  $50 in the pot, cart fees only for our guests.

P.S.  a moment of silence for one of the great from Atlantic city , the ubiquitous "Moon", on of the great lockermen anywhere!!   rest in peace!

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2006, 11:25:25 AM »
Archie,

I just sent you an email to your aol address.  good news and bad news-

good news is my brother and i may be in for tuesday.  bad news (for you, not me) i'll be getting john appleget as my partner, not you!

jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2006, 11:26:17 AM »
 :D 8) ;D


Forgot to respond to the agronomy query about ACCC.

I'm fairly sure they used A-1 as the grass of choice after some experimentation. Then superintendent Jeff Kent, a Dick Bator trainee, and an exceptional super in his own right, felt the biggest negative to the a's was the recuperative powers vis a vis ball marks.

Tom Doak would know for sure.



Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2006, 12:33:16 PM »
Could you guys keep me posted on the plans for next week - I might want to come up with my 13 year old son - any idea if they have a junior rate?  

Mike_Cirba

Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2006, 12:16:29 AM »
Played today with Mayday and we had a great time despite some cold winds blowing through.

I haven't played ACCC since prior to Tom Doak's work and I recall Tom posting here some time ago about some of the routing changes he made on the back nine.

Can anyone point me to that thread?  

While overall I believe that most of the renovation work is exceptional, and the course certainly has a more stunning look than it did previously, as well as improved playability generally, I was a bit less than enamored with the results of a few holes that seemed somewhat awkward and forced due to what seemed to me was the addition/expansion? of the practice facilities.  

Specifically, in the past, even though they likely suffered from some drainage issues, I always thought the final five holes were the a really nice crescendo finish.   The 14th still remains largely as a daring short par four, but then to drive out a hundred yards or more to back track on the par three 15th was ungainly, and while the 16th still takes you down to a neat corner of the property, the par three 17th is overdone from a construction standpoint and a real disappoinment.   Finally, the 18th is an awkward dogleg right that is helped by some neat bunkering, but hardly the possible heroic finish that the prior finale had been.

I don't want anyone to read these criticisms and feel that I'm downgrading the course or Tom's work overall, which as I mentioned is superlative through the majority of the course, but I have to admit that I was letdown by what to me had been previously been an excellent finishing stretch.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2006, 04:11:31 PM »
 I can't seem to get the Google Maps picture onto this site. I wanted to point out a very interesting feature of the course. This is a water hazard that sits between two parallel par fives. I don't think I have seen such an interesting use of water for two parallel holes. For the first hole the water is in front of you for your layup shot on the left side and angles into the majority of the green from the left.

   For the second par five it is just to the left for a long tee shot.

  Since I detest parallel water hazards this was a pleasure to see for me.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2006, 06:52:20 PM »
Mike:

Sorry you didn't like the new finishing holes.

The client did not like the old finishing holes, and I had to agree.  The old 14th through 16th holes all played downwind in the prevailing wind, and all measured 380-400 yards, so none of them was particularly enthralling.  (Plus they were underwater at high tide.)  And, though I would agree that the current 17th is not my favorite of the short holes, the one it replaced was nothing special, either.

As for 18, we pretty much had to shorten it to a par-4 because of the proximity of the new 14th green (and, as you allude, so you weren't playing over the back of the expanded practice facility with your second shot).  It's still the same green and bunkers as before.  Personally, I felt that a strong par-4 finish was more appealing than the old par-5 which was a lay-up second shot for most players, but if you had ever reached the green in two, you'd have grounds to argue with me about that.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 06:52:59 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 09:51:55 PM »
Tom, I didnt think 17 was a bad hole at all. Very curious as to what you dont like about it.........

I never saw it before the renovation, but ACCC has been one of my favorites ever since I got to play it. I go out of my way to play it every time I am in NJ.
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Mike_Cirba

Re:Atlantic City--Let's play next week before it closes until March.
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2006, 01:22:38 AM »
Mike:

Sorry you didn't like the new finishing holes.

The client did not like the old finishing holes, and I had to agree.  The old 14th through 16th holes all played downwind in the prevailing wind, and all measured 380-400 yards, so none of them was particularly enthralling.  (Plus they were underwater at high tide.)  And, though I would agree that the current 17th is not my favorite of the short holes, the one it replaced was nothing special, either.

As for 18, we pretty much had to shorten it to a par-4 because of the proximity of the new 14th green (and, as you allude, so you weren't playing over the back of the expanded practice facility with your second shot).  It's still the same green and bunkers as before.  Personally, I felt that a strong par-4 finish was more appealing than the old par-5 which was a lay-up second shot for most players, but if you had ever reached the green in two, you'd have grounds to argue with me about that.

Tom,

I think it would be a wide stretch for me to say that I didn't like the new finishing holes.   Taken individually, I thought 14 was terrific, 15 was a solid par three that takes advantage of the prevailing headwind, 16 was fine, but I preferred the original greensite closer to the water (which I can easily understand would be subject to flooding), 17 was overdone from a shaping standpoint and not a very intriguing hole, and 18 was fine as a challenging hole, but still a bit awkward in the turning angles.

So, when looking at each hole in isolation, there is very little to harp about.   It just seemed to me that you were hampered by the fact that once the decision was made to convert the old 10th and 11th holes into a single new par five, you then had to try to fit the 5 closing holes into a really cramped space, and didn't have many choices on how to route them.   Given those limitations, you have unfortunate scenarios such as where you play 14 and then have to walk/ride about 100+ yards, only to then turn around and backtrack to squeeze in the next par three in the opposite direction.  

I'm certain that the tidal considerations and subsequent drainage/flooding issues also had a lot to do with your decisions there.   It's just that viewed within the context of the rest of the course, and how nicely and logically the routing flows with ample width considerations throughout, it seemed that you were unfortunately boxed into a corner, literally and figuratively, on what was possible on those finishing holes.

For the record, when I last played there about 15 years ago, the old 14th, 15th and 16th did all go in the same direction, although they were a 493 yard par 5, a 393 yard par four, and a 407 yard par four respectively.   I would agree that the old 17th wasn't particularly stout or inspirational as a 174 yard par three, but I did really enjoy some of the gambling aspects of 18 as a 515 yard par five with the drive usually playing into the prevailing wind.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 01:27:18 AM by Mike Cirba »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Atlantic City--Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2006, 10:07:51 AM »
Mike:

Yes, the old 14th is now the 13th, though the green has been moved back and to the left.  I thought that was one of our better changes; ditto for lengthening the 11th by taking out the old par-3 over the pond.

I would agree that the last five holes are squeezed into a pretty tight space, but it didn't happen quite the way you suggest.  The key change was the creation of the new 14th and 15th holes, using the point into the marsh for #14 tee and then getting the green inland far enough that you could play #15 back into the prevailing wind.  That was the real reason for the change; once we'd decided on it, we could lengthen #10 and #11 because we had a hole to play with.

Creating all that "new" tidal marsh where the old 15th fairway lay gave us a lot of coin with the environmental groups to do whatever else we needed to do along the edge of the marsh ... I was told it was the only project the state had ever reviewed which proposed a net INCREASE in wetlands.  (It also provided us the fill we needed to raise the fairways on #13 and #16.)

One comment I didn't understand was your thought about #16 green being "closer to the water".  It's in the same place it always was; we just raised it to keep it from flooding.  I guess you just meant you liked it lower to the water?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Atlantic City--Thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2006, 10:37:26 AM »
Mike:

Yes, the old 14th is now the 13th, though the green has been moved back and to the left.  I thought that was one of our better changes; ditto for lengthening the 11th by taking out the old par-3 over the pond.

I would agree that the last five holes are squeezed into a pretty tight space, but it didn't happen quite the way you suggest.  The key change was the creation of the new 14th and 15th holes, using the point into the marsh for #14 tee and then getting the green inland far enough that you could play #15 back into the prevailing wind.  That was the real reason for the change; once we'd decided on it, we could lengthen #10 and #11 because we had a hole to play with.

Creating all that "new" tidal marsh where the old 15th fairway lay gave us a lot of coin with the environmental groups to do whatever else we needed to do along the edge of the marsh ... I was told it was the only project the state had ever reviewed which proposed a net INCREASE in wetlands.  (It also provided us the fill we needed to raise the fairways on #13 and #16.)

One comment I didn't understand was your thought about #16 green being "closer to the water".  It's in the same place it always was; we just raised it to keep it from flooding.  I guess you just meant you liked it lower to the water?

Tom,

Thanks for providing some of those details.   They certainly are very helpful in both confirming assumptions as well as clarifying misperceptions on my part.   It also gives me a better idea of some of the decision-making process that goes into course building and I think that's one of the best parts of your participation on this site to us laymen.

I would certainly agree with you that the replacement of the old par three 11th over the pond with the combination par five 10th, and very cool 11th were extremely positive changes.  Mike and I were commenting afterwards that all of the par fives are very strong, which is highly unusual.

Ditto for the changes to the new 13th (old 14th), another really good par five.  I do like the new green there quite a bit, and had a chance to try a lot of different little shots around it while Mike went back to look for a lost headcover.  

Your mention of the creation of the additional tidal marsh really fills in the blanks for me.   Until you mentioned that, I had no idea it was done and I struggled in my mind trying to envision where the original holes exactly lay.   Now, it all makes sense!  That was a very novel approach, I must say.

Yes, the 16th green lay flatter, which created the illusion of it being right next to the marsh.   I do see now what you mean and can certainly understand your reasons for raising it.

Is the considerable amount of fill that you had part of what drove the incongruous "dunes" that were created on 17?   In case I wasn't clear, that's the biggest part of the hole that I had objected to earlier; the juxtaposition of low-lying marshland with sudden, isolated dunes just doesn't come off real well, even on a sandy site.   Given what you had to work with in that corner, I think just the opposite might have worked better...using the buildup to perch up a tiny, convex greensite that would have been a pickle in the prevailing wind.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Atlantic City--Thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2006, 04:16:59 PM »
Mike:

We did just what you described for the 17th hole, except we did it at #12.  So, we were stuck with building a second short par 3 -- actually a third, because the fourth hole is also quite short -- and we were trying to do something to make it different.  I would agree that it is out of character, probably more so now than before, as the other "sand dunes" we built on the back nine have started to grow over with vegetation.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Atlantic City--Thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2006, 06:21:52 PM »
Mike:

We did just what you described for the 17th hole, except we did it at #12.  So, we were stuck with building a second short par 3 -- actually a third, because the fourth hole is also quite short -- and we were trying to do something to make it different.  I would agree that it is out of character, probably more so now than before, as the other "sand dunes" we built on the back nine have started to grow over with vegetation.

Tom,

Yes, and a wonderful short par three it is, the 12th.   In fact, ACCC might hold some type of modern record for having 3 par threes under 160 yards, with the 4th, 12th, and 17th coming in at 144, 134, and 157 respectively.  The other two at 196 and 190 (especially exposed into the headwind) do provide some balance.

One of the things I liked best about ACCC is that similar to Merion, it played MUCH longer than the 6577 yards, par 70 that the scorecard indicates, simply due to the fact that where it's short, it's VERY short, and where it's long, it is quite arduous, especially when one considers the prevalence of heavy winds at the sea-level course.

With 4 par fours on the front nine over 450 yards, and a par five of 592, it's pretty amazing that the overall card yardage for the front nine is only 3452.   And, while the back nine plays shorter at just over 3100 yards, there is the need for greater precision thoughout, and more of the chance of card-wreckers due to the prevalance of water and the bay.

Quick question;  I recall the Flynn bunkering scheme to be rather good, even if the bunkers themselves were a bit worn and probably not anything too fanciful in the first place.   How much of that plan did you adhere to (where you just rebuilt original bunkers in their original positions) versus the addition of new bunkers?   I would guess it was quite the mix of both?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Atlantic City--Thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2006, 12:14:35 PM »
Mike:

Probably more than half of the "new" bunkers were suggested by Flynn's original bunkers, because the hollows which were built in the 1920's were still there to suggest themselves as good places for a splash of sand.  And we did go back and look at the old aerial photos to see what good ideas had been out there, prior to making our plan for the new course.  But, honestly, at this point I can't remember which were there or not there without looking back at the old aerial.

Matt_Ward

Re:Atlantic City--Thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2006, 12:28:09 PM »
The key in understanding the "new" ACCC versus the "old" ACCC comes down to a simple fact -- the "new" holes offer a good bit more variety and distinction from a design perspective than what was there beforehand.

Frankly, the "old" ACCC (not just simply the holes in question) had become tired. The infusion of $$ plus the added benefit in bringing on board Doak clearly has reinvigorated for me the idea that ACCC does indeed have something of value to offer and is clearly among the troika of courses that anyone passionate in the game should play when coming to the area (as well as Galloway National and Hidden Creek).

Mike is quite right about the wind patterns at the course. In many ways the listed scorecard length can often be thrown out the window because of what you need to hit on different holes at different times of the year.


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