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Tom_Doak

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Pacific Dunes hole #1
« on: May 28, 2003, 07:41:48 AM »
Pat Mucci asked a question about the first hole at Pacific Dunes.  By way of answering, I thought I would respond by printing the draft of my description of the hole for my book on the golf course, which is still in the works.

This gives everyone a chance to see where I'm going.  I would be grateful for feedback on what other bits of information you would like about the various holes.

I'm not going to do this as a running series, though.  If I'm going to give away all of our "secrets," I should at least make something out of it.  Here goes:

            In truth, the design of the first hole was done backwards, from the huge blowout in front of the second tee.  We wanted that blowout to figure prominently in the beginning of the golf course, to make a statement that there was more to Pacific Dunes than just its oceanfront holes.

      Mike Keiser had suggested that we put the green for the first hole where the white tee is on the second, right at the lip of the blowout.  But, we were concerned that the wind would always drift sand onto the green, and then the blowout would have been more window dressing than in play.  I wanted golfers to hit over it from the second tee, and that meant that the first hole would be very short.

      I used to avoid starting a course with a short par-4, because I didn’t want to put too much pressure on the golfer’s opening shots, and a short par-4 without difficulty is just a dull hole.  However, on another recent design -- Lost Dunes -- we built a shortish par-4 to start, and it was universally popular, so my reticence went away.  

      The tee location was pretty well fixed -- there was a trail up the valley of the first fairway, which was actually the way we walked into the property for the very first time.  From a natural ridge which is now the white tee it was almost 200 yards to get to the crest of the ridge in the landing area, and into the prevailing wind, that seemed like plenty; but we did go back and forth for some time over the location of the green, because everyone was uncertain whether a 300-yard opening hole was long enough.

      We briefly considered moving the green higher up and to the right -- behind the second tee.  But I thought that would encourage players to slice their tee shots, and there is a lot of trouble to carry before you can afford to be on the right side of this fairway.  Eventually, we solved the “length problem” by deciding to build a back tee so the hole wouldn’t be drivable in the off-season, when the wind can blow from the south.  This then allowed us to locate the green so that the huge blowout was the background for the approach shot.

      The original undulations at the crest of the fairway were very sharp, so we had to soften them enough to make the fairway mowable.  However, we left all of the little natural hollows, so that golfers could get a very uneven lie for their second shot.  With a short iron in your hand, it will be hard to judge how much influence a sideslope will have; and a strong wind in your face compounds the problem.  Often, a controlled punch shot will work the best, so we left ample room in front of the green to play a low shot home.  

      The green is in a natural hollow.  To the right there is a small patch of sand dune from which you get a free drop, to protect the silver phacelia which is growing there; otherwise this area would quickly become a mass of footprints and start to erode with the wind.  Because the green is sitting down from the fairway, it‘s easy not to notice the depth of the left-hand bunker until it‘s too late.  

      The green itself is one of the trickiest on the course; again, the hollow makes it hard to see the undulations.  There is quite a bit of tilt from back to front, and a crown in the middle as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

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Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2003, 07:47:01 AM »
Terrific - thanks for sharing this - this is why I love this site, in spite of some of the Rees threads.

I assume the book will have accompanying diagrams/photos?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2003, 07:56:27 AM »
Tom I realize 200 yards is not much but I have had more blind second shots than not from the right side into the wind. How far do you need to hit the ball to have a open view of the green. It seemed into the wind you need to hit a pretty good drive to the middle to left side of the fairway. I almost drove the green downwind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2003, 08:07:19 AM »
Tom Doak:

You just had to torture us a bit. For years we waited for the Mackenzie book and things like George Bahto's book on CB Mac. Now we will wait - impatiently - for the Pacific Dunes book.

Well done. I think you are on the right track.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

GeoffreyC

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2003, 08:23:56 AM »
Tom

George Bahto, Mike Cirba and I walked parts of the course the first evening we arrived at Bandon and the first fairway was our initiation into to joys of Pac Dunes. Seeing it in person as we did immediately told us that we were in for a special treat.  I think it's a teriffic opener as its sets the stage for all the decisions, strategies and problems that will be encountered the rest of the round. How far do I want to hit the tee shot and what club do I hit?  Can I fit it into that slot on the left to get a view of the green?  How do I best use the slopes on the green to get it close to the hole?  The first hole as a short par 4 still serves as a microcosm of the whole experience.

I think that a set of drawings like those done by Gil Hanse in Geoff Shackelford's new book "Grounds for Golf" would be a great addition to your descriptions of each hole.  With the choices of greensites and tees for #1 and 2 as an example I think we could get a greater insight into your thinking about how Pac Dunes was built and in addition the strategies for playing it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2003, 08:28:51 AM »
With apologies to the original photographer?
This was posted here some time ago.


Tom,
I hope you can make it as techincal as possible.  With any sketches of the greens (pre or post construction)?
Cheers
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

ForkaB

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2003, 08:39:11 AM »
I agree that #1 PD is a great opening hole, for all the reasons stated above.  I played it 4 times and my best score was 5, including the last time when I had a 10 foot birdie putt (above the hole, alas........).  I have a couple of questions for Tom.

1.  When I was there 2 years ago, a new tee was being built to the left of the old one next to the putting green.  Is that the current tee in use, and does it give one more visibility of the fairway and tee ball options?

2.  Was there any consideration of siting the clubhouse more out in the middle of the property (making the "inland" stretch of 15,16,17,18,1,2 a continuous one, somewhere in the middle of the round?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2003, 08:48:09 AM »
Another image of #1



Hese is the tee shot on #2 over the dune as described by Tom

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2003, 09:00:56 AM »
TomD:

Thanks for the description. To actually hear from an architect what's going through his mind and the problems and solutions of a concept and product is about the best that can be done on here. That kind of thing is the real architectural education for contributors to this website.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2003, 09:04:30 AM »
TomD:

Do you know if Mike Keiser checked with any golf architects before he bought all that land at Bandon--or did he just buy it on his own figuring it had to be a "can't miss" for golf architecture?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2003, 09:21:00 AM »
Taster of the book...OUTSTANDING

1st hole......great opener into the world that is Pac Dunes.

IMHO, the fact that it is a blind tee shot and there is trouble everywhere makes it a stern test.  Not too stern, however, as all one really needs to do is poke a medium grade 3 wood over the hill.  Keep it left!

I'm biased though.  Hit a good 3 wood, punched a run up 6 iron and drained the putt for a birdie.  Good thing too, I needed that 3 on the scorcard after putting one into the ocean on #4 and taking a snowman and tripling #7.  

OUCH! :P

Great hole
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2003, 04:57:39 AM »
Mike,

I only did sketches of 3-4 greens there so that Jim Urbina could rough them in while I was away, and pretty much none of them wound up looking like my sketch.  I'd like to do sketches of the finished products for the book, EXCEPT that it might leave the impression that the sketches had something to do with how we built them.

(And don't tell me I'm wrong; someone from Yarra Yarra Golf Club called me recently where we got the sketches of their course for the MacKenzie book.  They thought I'd found a Russell or MacKenzie stash ... actually Don Placek drew them up!)

Tiger -- The ridge at the top of the fairway runs a bit diagonally away to the right, so you have to carry it 10-15 yards farther on the right to reach the top; plus the hill short right of the green hides more from there.  But from the crest of the ridge to the green is about 115 yards, so that's only 190 from the main tee.

Rich -- The new tee on #1 is open.  We always intended to build it, but couldn't while they were dickering over the temporary clubhouse site.  But it does not give you better visibility (you're actually crowded over a little more to the left of the tee shot corridor); it's simply there so good players won't drive the green downwind, and to discourage people from playing the back tees.

Also, there was consideration of putting the clubhouse somewhere else, which I will discuss at length in the book.

Tom P. -- Mike bought the first chunk of land the day he first saw it.  He didn't check with anybody.  He told me once that he figured the odds of getting the permits were about 1 in 3 when he bought it, which sounds a bit risky considering he spent a couple million dollars on it -- but it wasn't his last dollar, and he figured the land wasn't going to go down in value regardless.  If more people could afford to take this approach, there would be many more great golf courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2003, 06:31:25 AM »
TomD:

How do you feel about those trees (taller ones) in the skyline (sealine) behind #2 green (in that photo above)? Do you think they're representative of what you found on the pre-construction site? Vast and impressive backdrops like that aren't every day occurences in golf but trees are sort of time a dozen in golf. I know you once said that Mike Keiser may have been a bit too aggressive in your opinion on pushing to remove trees everywhere on PD and you thought maybe it was a good idea to try to slow him down a tad. But what about that backdrop in that photo--do you prefer those taller trees back there or do you think the look would be preferrable without them?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2003, 06:36:10 AM »
"-- but it wasn't his last dollar, and he figured the land wasn't going to go down in value regardless.  If more people could afford to take this approach, there would be many more great golf courses."

TomD:

Do you know anyone else who'd be willing to take that first day/first sight approach and drop a couple of mil like that on land for golf? If so, let me know--there's something in and around the US East coast that might be worth a look at least.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2003, 06:44:23 AM »
Tom P:  After the gorse fire at Pacific Dunes, those trees behind #2 green and #6 green were about the only ones left standing besides the ones on 7 & 8 fairways.  I think we kept them partly because there were so few others.  To me, they aren't a positive or a negative from #2, but they stop you from looking at more blank space / raw bank from #6.

(And you get to see plenty of ocean later in the round.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2003, 11:30:20 AM »
I love the first hole at Pacific Dunes, it gives you that "Toto-I-don't-think-we-are-in-Kansas-anymore feel.

It reminds me of the first hole at Prestwick. Not in design or how its setup, but in feel. From the first tee at Prestwick you have no idea what to do, but judging by the yardage, you just decide to bunt something out there about 200 yards. But then you get to your tee shot, and still you are clueless. "When the hell is this course going to show itself?" "Will the entire day be like this?" "Please, someone, point me in the right direction."

I love that.

Dan King
Quote
You would like to gather up several holes from Prestwick and mail them to your top ten enemies.
  --Dan Jenkins
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2003, 12:30:21 PM »
Tom, what about the other tee on #1?  You know, the one behind the 18th green to the east of the clubhouse deck.  Would anyone really want to play it from there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2003, 10:52:30 AM »
Geoff Childs,

I have to run, but, I'll be back.

I found the first hole quite different from the rest of the golf course.

I say this in the context of # 1 at NGLA, Westhampton, and GCGC.

I think the only problem with the first hole may be gravity.

I'll be back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2003, 08:32:55 PM »
The 1st at PD plays completely against all of my strengths, and is in some ways my nightmare first hole.

As a lefthander prone to duckhooking, particularly on first holes and even more particularly on uphill holes, the thought of actually hitting the sweet slot on the top of the hill to the left side on my first "real" shot of the day is similar to imagining a night with Jennifer Lopez...wonderful to imagine but about as likely.  

In both rounds I fell off the end of the earth to the right, although I did play a miraculous 8-iron from there on one of them that somehow finished about 12 feet from the hole after (my playing partners told me) my approach barely carried the right hand mound.

But, even if I ended up in position "A", the approach feel awkward to me, especially knowing that any shot that drifts slightly right tends to fall away to that side, while the rest of the green moves pretty sharply from right to left.

The whole hole feels awkward and unusual to me, and damn...I love it because of it.  It initiates the unsuspecting golfer into a clear realization that this is most clearly NOT the usual or expected fare.

On the other hand, number 2 plays directly to my strengths, yet as visually comfortable as I feel along the way, it offers almost the exact opposite set of challenges.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2003, 09:22:29 PM »
Mike Cirba,

One of the things that I liked about the first hole, were the two, entirely different, signals the golfer receives when playing the hole for the first time.

The signal on the tee is rather vague and creates a fair degree of visual and tactical uncertainty.

Once in play, the signal for the approach shot is rather clear.
Once in the drive zone, one can see where they should have hit their tee shot and relate that optimal position to where their ball lies.  One also goes through the exercise of visualizing where they will aim their tee shot the next time they play the hole.

I was lucky the first time, into a good wind at 1:50 pm, I hit a solid drive but pulled it a little left of my intended target line.
When I reached my ball I liked the angle and punched a choked down 9-iron not far from the pin.

The next day, at 7:50 am, with only a slight breeze, I knew that I didn't want to hit my driver, didn't want to go right and debated a 2-iron or 3-wood.  I hit a 3-wood into the middle of the fairway and hit a sand wedge to 5 feet, where I missed the putt.

The moguls in the fairway were neat, but, they seemed to funnel balls to the bottoms, which were littered with divots.
This got me thinking that perhaps I should hit the club that will most likely take me out of mogul land without getting me into trouble elsewhere.  Depending on the wind, that could be a driver to a 4-iron.

After playing Pacific Dunes, in a letter to a friend, I stated that I thought some of the holes might have been designed from the core of the course backwards, and based on Tom Doak's description of hole # 1's creation, it would seem so.

Tom Doak,

Were any other holes designed in similar fashion ?
How was hole # 18 designed.

One of the most fascinating experiences, for me, at Pacific Dunes was the climb from # 16 green to # 17 tee, and seeing this big, expansive hole, that had heretofor been hidden from the golfers view.  It was like discovering a hidden valley, a lost world that bore little resemblance to the one I had been trodding around for the last three hours.  The visual on # 17 tee was a total surprise, and I liked it.

How did you come to find and design that hole ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2003, 10:40:45 PM »
Patrick:

I know that everyone who knows you can see the wheels spinning in your head but what I'd like to know is how well most can hear them? Doesn't your brain get tired?

You remind me of a guy at GMGC who once breathlessly asked Peter Jacobsen about 101 questions of things he thought Peter might be thinking of on the 10th tee of the last round of a tournament he was leading and finished his questioning off with; "Isn't that all true?"

Jacobsen looked at that guy for a very long minute in amazement and after asking the guy if he was tuned into the tower at the Philadelphia airport said:

"I think about hitting the f..ing ball in the middle of the fairway, then onto the green and then sinking the putt!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2003, 04:14:33 AM »
Tom,

After you graciously took Shoe and I around 11 holes at PacDunes before it opened I wrote you and said that I feared that the exposed low sand area to the right of #1's fairway would catch a higher handicap's slice off the tee.  I thought it would potentially slow play.  I assume a few years of play have shown me to be incorrect.

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2003, 05:13:19 AM »
I loved the first hole.  To say I was nervous on the first tee was an understatment...  I had traveled 3000 miles to play, and I wanted to get the round off to a good start.    The hole really served to get me into the Bandon/Pacific experience.  The world was left behind and the dunes and ocean lay ahead.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2003, 07:26:21 AM »
TEPaul,

My desire and methodology for the acquisition of information/knowledge is fueled by my curiosity, hence, I ask questions.

If you don't inquire, how will you aspire ?

Do you prefer to lecture rather than ask questions ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pacific Dunes hole #1
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2003, 07:58:12 AM »
Jonathan:

I was worried about that area to the right of #1 myself for a while.

On Opening Day, Mike Keiser stood and shook the hand of every golfer who played and then watched their opening tee shots, while I went out and played a hole or two with many groups.  That evening I asked Mike how many people hit it out of play off the tee and he said 1 in 4 -- most of them to the right.  

For a while after that I considered cutting down the ridge on that side to make the carry less intimidating and the recovery easier.  (I've only sliced it down in there once, and made a hell of a six.)  But Mike said he'd just like to wait and see, and to date it has not proved enough of a problem to address.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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